A4K
Brigadier General
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- Thread starter
- #23
GregP
Major
Thanks Tomo! If anyone has the British victories in a usable format, maybe post them or provide a link?
I could MAKE the Tony Woods British files usable, but it would take some work ... and I just don't have the time right now. It isn't how Tony is storing them ... it;s how they are organized, or rather, unorganized.
I could MAKE the Tony Woods British files usable, but it would take some work ... and I just don't have the time right now. It isn't how Tony is storing them ... it;s how they are organized, or rather, unorganized.
Somehow missed this thread. I could have certainly helped...
- Thread starter
- #25
GregP
Major
Just this once, we'll forgive you.
If it happens again, YOU buy the beer.
If it happens again, YOU buy the beer.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Actually, that's Sturzkampfgeschwader
Then there's also:
Luftlandegeschwader (LLG) - Glider Group
Transportgeschwader (TG) - Transport Group
And how about:
Jadgverband (JV) - Hunting Group
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
I knew I was gonna get one of those wrong but went with it! Thanks.
Greg, I may have made these files a bit easier to read about 10 years ago. I will see what I have. What time period are you looking at?
Greg, I may have made these files a bit easier to read about 10 years ago. I will see what I have. What time period are you looking at?
- Thread starter
- #28
GregP
Major
I'm looking for WWII, though ALL arial victories would be the ideal data set.
I have a file with the aerial victories from almost every country (I still lack 3 - 4 countries), but what I really want is data that shows the victories, dates, type of victim, type the victor was flying, the unit the pilot was with and country. and whether or not it was shared ... for all aerial victories.
Instead I have data that show the victories, units and dates ... but not what type the victor was flying or what type was shot down. You can get some information from it, but not much. You can't tell how many enemy aircraft were shot down by what type, when, etc.
I may never GET the data I'm looking for, but you never know if you don't try for it. These data probably SHOULD be in public records somewhere, but I don't know where they can be located. There seems to be an official cloud of secrecy hanging over the data.
If the data exist, they are many times not in a useful format. For instance, the British data on Tony Wood's site has a lot of data in it, but it is organized in useless records for automatic searches and summations.
Frustrating. But the Tony Wood East and West data are very close to being what I want, at least for Germany, but they are claims, not confirmend victories. Perhaps claims are all we will ever get from most countries since the vetting of the claims after the war was funded only in the U.S.A. as far as I can tell. I may be wrong there and, in fact, hope so. If so, I haven't seen the vetted victories lists from any other country.
It would be nice to see some decent data from the Soviet Union, but I really don't have but ONE list from there and I got it from somehwere maybe 20 years ago and haven't seen it since. I forget where I found it, and that makes me doubt the data more than anything else. One list from a forgotten source that I can't relocate again makes me not even want to share it ... due to its unknown origin.
I have a file with the aerial victories from almost every country (I still lack 3 - 4 countries), but what I really want is data that shows the victories, dates, type of victim, type the victor was flying, the unit the pilot was with and country. and whether or not it was shared ... for all aerial victories.
Instead I have data that show the victories, units and dates ... but not what type the victor was flying or what type was shot down. You can get some information from it, but not much. You can't tell how many enemy aircraft were shot down by what type, when, etc.
I may never GET the data I'm looking for, but you never know if you don't try for it. These data probably SHOULD be in public records somewhere, but I don't know where they can be located. There seems to be an official cloud of secrecy hanging over the data.
If the data exist, they are many times not in a useful format. For instance, the British data on Tony Wood's site has a lot of data in it, but it is organized in useless records for automatic searches and summations.
Frustrating. But the Tony Wood East and West data are very close to being what I want, at least for Germany, but they are claims, not confirmend victories. Perhaps claims are all we will ever get from most countries since the vetting of the claims after the war was funded only in the U.S.A. as far as I can tell. I may be wrong there and, in fact, hope so. If so, I haven't seen the vetted victories lists from any other country.
It would be nice to see some decent data from the Soviet Union, but I really don't have but ONE list from there and I got it from somehwere maybe 20 years ago and haven't seen it since. I forget where I found it, and that makes me doubt the data more than anything else. One list from a forgotten source that I can't relocate again makes me not even want to share it ... due to its unknown origin.
I am pretty sure I gave you this link before Greg, The Luftwaffe, 1933-45
example:
Seenot Einheiten = distress units
Küstenfliegergruppe 106 = Coastal Aviation Group 106
example:
Seenot Einheiten = distress units
Küstenfliegergruppe 106 = Coastal Aviation Group 106
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
You were real close with Sturzkampfgeschwader, Chris!
Could be easy to mix Sturz with Stuka, since Stuka is short for Sturzkampfflugzeug.
- Thread starter
- #32
GregP
Major
Thanks again, Milosh. I think you did and it was down about 50 deep in my bookmarks ...
My fault. and I apreciate the reminder.
My fault. and I apreciate the reminder.
- Thread starter
- #33
GregP
Major
By the way, if you use Excel for data analysis you have to be aware of the idiosyncracies of data tables and queries with criteria and pivot tables.
If you have some claims named "MiG" and some named "MiG-1," "MiG-3", etc, Excel sees this as text. "MiG" in the criteria will find "MiG," but will ALSO find "MiG-1," "MiG-3" etc. I am renaming "MiG" as "Unknown MiG", "LaGG"" as "Unknown LaGG," etc. That way, you eliminate duplicate numbers in 2-input data tables.
Thought I might mention it since I am runniong acriss it doing analysis on Tony Wood;s files.
If you have some claims named "MiG" and some named "MiG-1," "MiG-3", etc, Excel sees this as text. "MiG" in the criteria will find "MiG," but will ALSO find "MiG-1," "MiG-3" etc. I am renaming "MiG" as "Unknown MiG", "LaGG"" as "Unknown LaGG," etc. That way, you eliminate duplicate numbers in 2-input data tables.
Thought I might mention it since I am runniong acriss it doing analysis on Tony Wood;s files.
- Thread starter
- #34
GregP
Major
When I downloaded Tony Wood's files of Germans claims from the East and West as well as the Spanish Civil War, I thought the main job would be to get the data into Microsoft Excel. Turns out not to be the case.
Seem as if the Germans firmly used only the Soviet I-type designations, and they were incorrect with more than a few of them. Just a few examples include:
1. Claiming many I-26 which I changed to Yal-1 (though some could be Yak-3.s).
2. Claiming 170 I-180 aircraft. The Soviets only built 10 production plus 3 prototypes and they never reached squadron service. It is almost certain these claims were I-16's as the I-180 was developed from the I-16.
3. Claiming many DB-7 aircraft. The designation DB-7 was an early and mostly internal designation for the Douglas A-20, so I changed these to A-20's.
4. Claiming many "KaGG" aircraft. Technically it's not a mistake but I changed these into LaGG-1s even though many could be LaGG-3s. I also changed LaGG-5 into La-5 since there was no LaGG-5.
5. I changed Kittyhawl, Kittyhawk I, Tomahawk, Curtiss, and several other designations into P-40.
6. I changed PS-84 into Li-2 since that is the proper designation.
7. I changed R-3 and R III into ANT 3 and R-10 into KhAI-5. If you go look them up, the R designations are easily turned into a proper identification.
8. There were 13 different varieties of names for Spitfire, so I changed them all to Spitfire. These included Spitfire, Spitfire V, Spitfire Vc, Spitfire w.b., Spitfire +. Etc.
9. They had 4 or 5 varieties of U-2 which I changed into Po-2.
10. They claimed a Curtiss P-46 and a Curtiss P-49 which I changed into P-40 since no P-46 or P-49 ever got into the war. I figured a typo there or simple misidentification.
11. So far, I cannot figure out what a DJ-6 aircraft is, so I left it as DJ-6.
12. Several claims were listed as Bisely or Bisley V with Blenhiem in brackets, so I changed all the Bisely's into Blenheims.
The list above is not complete, but you get the idea.
Once all that was done I had to address the Excel-specific things. If you do a query in Excel and you look for "I-16" Excel sees it as text. It will return a finding for all the "I-16" it finds, but will also return a finding for "I-160" and "I-161" since both contain "I-16" in the text. So I changed "I-16" into "I-16 Only" to differentiate it from the other selections. Same goes for "P-3" and "P-38" and "P-39" as well as a few other claims.
When I say "changed" above I should explain that there is a column titled "Claimed" in the Tony Woods files. I added a column titled "GenericClaim" right next to the "Claimed" column so I could clarify the claims without taking away the original claim designation in case it comes up later. So although I DID change the claim designation, I did not remove the original claim designation.
Finally, after a couple if days of playing with it, I arrived at a consistent file and did a query of the victories by designation and year. The list is too long to show in here in total, but a partial list is shown below.
The total at the top are the totals for all the victories, and you can see when the bulk were scored. Notice the almost complete drop-off in 1945, as we would all expect. There was evem MORE work to be done on the Spanish Civil War claims since the Germans were totally mistaken about a lot of claim, but they were consistent with the mistakes. That's another post.
Seem as if the Germans firmly used only the Soviet I-type designations, and they were incorrect with more than a few of them. Just a few examples include:
1. Claiming many I-26 which I changed to Yal-1 (though some could be Yak-3.s).
2. Claiming 170 I-180 aircraft. The Soviets only built 10 production plus 3 prototypes and they never reached squadron service. It is almost certain these claims were I-16's as the I-180 was developed from the I-16.
3. Claiming many DB-7 aircraft. The designation DB-7 was an early and mostly internal designation for the Douglas A-20, so I changed these to A-20's.
4. Claiming many "KaGG" aircraft. Technically it's not a mistake but I changed these into LaGG-1s even though many could be LaGG-3s. I also changed LaGG-5 into La-5 since there was no LaGG-5.
5. I changed Kittyhawl, Kittyhawk I, Tomahawk, Curtiss, and several other designations into P-40.
6. I changed PS-84 into Li-2 since that is the proper designation.
7. I changed R-3 and R III into ANT 3 and R-10 into KhAI-5. If you go look them up, the R designations are easily turned into a proper identification.
8. There were 13 different varieties of names for Spitfire, so I changed them all to Spitfire. These included Spitfire, Spitfire V, Spitfire Vc, Spitfire w.b., Spitfire +. Etc.
9. They had 4 or 5 varieties of U-2 which I changed into Po-2.
10. They claimed a Curtiss P-46 and a Curtiss P-49 which I changed into P-40 since no P-46 or P-49 ever got into the war. I figured a typo there or simple misidentification.
11. So far, I cannot figure out what a DJ-6 aircraft is, so I left it as DJ-6.
12. Several claims were listed as Bisely or Bisley V with Blenhiem in brackets, so I changed all the Bisely's into Blenheims.
The list above is not complete, but you get the idea.
Once all that was done I had to address the Excel-specific things. If you do a query in Excel and you look for "I-16" Excel sees it as text. It will return a finding for all the "I-16" it finds, but will also return a finding for "I-160" and "I-161" since both contain "I-16" in the text. So I changed "I-16" into "I-16 Only" to differentiate it from the other selections. Same goes for "P-3" and "P-38" and "P-39" as well as a few other claims.
When I say "changed" above I should explain that there is a column titled "Claimed" in the Tony Woods files. I added a column titled "GenericClaim" right next to the "Claimed" column so I could clarify the claims without taking away the original claim designation in case it comes up later. So although I DID change the claim designation, I did not remove the original claim designation.
Finally, after a couple if days of playing with it, I arrived at a consistent file and did a query of the victories by designation and year. The list is too long to show in here in total, but a partial list is shown below.
The total at the top are the totals for all the victories, and you can see when the bulk were scored. Notice the almost complete drop-off in 1945, as we would all expect. There was evem MORE work to be done on the Spanish Civil War claims since the Germans were totally mistaken about a lot of claim, but they were consistent with the mistakes. That's another post.
- Thread starter
- #35
GregP
Major
After I finished cleaning up the file, here is the final result. The original claim designation is in the "Claimed" column and my correction is in the "GenericClaim" column, right next to the original.
