Some What-Ifs for the First Generation Jets

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To inflict prohibitive losses on the bomber force imo they might've needed the strength equivalent to a whole JG equipped with the Me 262. Unless you start deploying in early 1943, that would not have been possible by the end of the year.
 
As Adolf Galland said in the preface of Hugh Moragn's 'Me262: Stormbird Rising' if an earlier and more numerous deployment of the Me262 was possible it would have done nothing to check the vast amount of Russian armour heading to Germany and would probably have led to more of Germany being occupied by the Russians and maybe even all of western Europe.

Even assuming that the LW could field large numbers of Me262's, with suitably trained pilots fuel to fly them and been able to halt or seriously degrade the daylight bombing (a lot of ifs) and let's even assume they make D-day a failure (or maybe more likely postponed until 1945) and for good measure let's also say that the night-fighter comes on the same timetable and so is commencing experimental combat operations in early 1944 I still cannot see anything but what Galland estimates as happening.

You only have to look at the production numbers.
Germany made abut 6,000 panther tanks.
Russia produced over 57,000 T34s (22,500 the T34/85).

There are similar absolutely vast gaps in artillary and aircraft production too and whatever qualitative differences one sees - which I think are usually little more than practical adaptations and cost effective limitations - the fact is the Russian arms swamped German arms.
Without the atomic bomb (or the use of biological weapons - something that would have brought a devastating retaliatory response as Churchill made clear) I just do not see anything Germany could have done to stave off defeat.

The war was lost in 1941/42 (with the failure to win the Battle of Britain, the Battle of the Atlantic cause the collapse defeat of the Russians at Moscow), by 1943 it was too late and always going to end up with Germany losing, in my opinion.
 

This ends up being the crux of the argument. Regardless of what the western allies do/don't do and what Germany MIGHT have been able to field, the Russian defeat of Germany is a given. The spirit of the question I believe, is a 'what if' scenario ignoring for the moment the very real inevitability of a Soviet win.

The Heinkel HeS 011 or Heinkel-Hirth 109-011 was the next generation of jet engine in the pipeline for Germany to be mated with planned aircraft such as the Ta 183. Whatever the Allies had planned for future jet aircraft development must have been shelved once they got their hands on the plans for these German aircraft. Of note, the front line fighter aircraft fielded by the Soviet Union (MiG-15) and the US (F-86) are aircraft that were obviously influenced by a similar design. I would say that at least for these two countries, it was realized that the German designs to be most superior to what they had on their design boards.
 
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Hate to say it, but no matter how many Me262s Germany produced, it wouldn't have made a difference against Allied fighters, the Me262 was not a gunslinger...it was stellar in the role of interceptor but it was definatly not on a level with the more manouverable fighters it was facing.

If, and I emphasize *IF*, the RLM had it's act together soon enough and devoted R&D funding for engine development early enough, the He280 would have made a difference with it's ability to enter into a turning fight on a par equal to the Fw190. A jet appearing on the battle front that early in the war would have definately forced the Allies into a "new threat upgrade".

My guess here is that had all these "what-ifs" fallen into place, all it would have done, is most likely prolong the inevitable.
 
GrauGeist said:
...

My guess here is that had all these "what-ifs" fallen into place, all it would have done, is most likely prolong the inevitable.
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Yep, like in many/all pro-German (= they do something 'right') what-ifs, things boil down to The Bomb.
 
A modern day F-15 is not as manouverable as WWII era piston engine fighter aircraft either. However I think it would do just fine in WWII aerial combat even without the use of missiles and radar. Speed and firepower trump dogfighting capability if proper aerial tactics are used.

IMO if you employ Me-262s in Jagdgeschwader strength before summer 1944 then piston engine fighters like the P-51 and Spitfire would be slaughtered along with Allied heavy bombers. After the summer of 1944 it's too late.
 
davebender said:
A modern day F-15 is not as manouverable as WWII era piston engine fighter aircraft either.
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In what perspective??? It surely can't turn with a WW2 fighter but because of its power to weight ratio can engage in vertical maneuvers that will eliminate any maneuverability advantage a WW2 aircraft an execute, including turns.
 
because of its power to weight ratio can engage in vertical maneuvers that will eliminate any maneuverability advantage a WW2 aircraft an execute
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I agree.

In the same way (but obviously not to the same extent) a 100mph speed advantage and 4 x 30mm cannon make the Me-262 unbeatable if properly flown. But this must happen prior to the summer of 1944. Not even F-15s can survive if your airfields are being attacked by enemy fighter-bombers around the clock.
 
Not to the same extent at all. The major difference is that the F-15 as mentioned has *way* more 'horsepower' per unt of weight than any WWII fighter, piston or jet. Whereas WWII jets did not have a lot if any more than props, they mainly just had better propulsive efficiency *at high speed*, which is why they were faster. An F-15 even at relatively slow speed can climb and accelerate the hell out of a WWII piston fighter, a WWII jet was actually inferior to its best piston counterparts in those regards once it slowed down (the thrust of the P-51's, say, prop would increase a lot as it slowed down, the jet's thrust was more or less constant).

So, as we've covered many times, and references are clear for anyone to read, most piston kills (which mainly means P-51 kills) of jets were *not* against a/c taking off and landing, or on the ground. The pistons did benefit from numerical superiority, for there to be piston a/c usually around to jump a jet from behind in a dive whether it was going to a bomber bomber formation, attacking one, or returing home. And they benefitted from the poor quality of jet pilots once the jet force was of significant size, in 1945, when most of the 100+ kills v jets were scored. And they benefitted from their much superior fuel persistance, even over Germany. They could generally parry jet attacks with superior turn until the jet was forced to break off. With either lots more jets or less fuel persistent P-51's, the P-51's might have been forced to attempt to withdraw under jet attack, and suffered heavily. As it was that almost never happened, and in total the jets downed few piston fighters which can be confirmed in Allied accounts (though claimed quite a few; German fighter claims were often highly exaggerated late in the war).

That said it's obvious and always has been that if the Germans had built up a large jet force at least a year earlier than they did, the USAAF would have had a much more difficult time.

Joe
 
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davebender said:
...a 100mph speed advantage and 4 x 30mm cannon make the Me-262 unbeatable if properly flown...
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Keep in mind that the Me262 only carried a little over 700 rounds, the P-51D carried over 1,800 (Spitfire carried over 1,400 for it's Brownings) giving even a faster Me262 a very limited amount of "gun time" to engage an opponent with (Unless the Luftwaffe could equip a JV with nothing but pilots like Hartmann and Marseille)...
 

I believe that the ammo capacity was 100rpg for two guns and 80 rpg for the other two. Just under 8 seconds firing time for all four guns with another 2 seconds for the upper pair?
I am going off of old books but 700 rounds seems a bit much?

Spitfires carried 120rpg for their 20mm which give 12 seconds and the 350rpg for the peashooters gives 17-18 seconds?
 
If a pilot flying 262 can't hit anything with 360 rounds he have on board, than it's his fault, not his machine's. So, perhaps, with pilot quality in mind, 4-5 x 20mm with double the ammo capacity might have been better choice that it was historically.
 
4-5 x 20mm with double the ammo capacity might have been better choice
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Only for fighter vs fighter combat. Nothing beats 4 x 30mm cannon plus R4M FF rockets for knocking heavy bombers out of the sky.

Perhaps if Germany had entire Jagdgeschwader equipped with the Me-262 then one Gruppe (of 3 total) might be armed with 4 x MG151/20 cannon. This Gruppe would assigned to keep the P-47 and P-51 escorts busy while the other two Gruppe armed with 4 x 30mm cannon would attack the bombers.
 
4 x 20mm do not cancel out availability for RM4 rockets, while they offer greater chance for an average German pilot of last war's year to score hits.
 
don't think you want a Me 262 gruppe or even 10 competing with P-51's, for one thing the turning radius on the jet is way too wide and advantage for the US fighter escorts
 

I am not sure it's question of being able to hit with the 360 rounds as it is combat persistence. Depending on wither you believe a "burst" is 2 seconds or 3 seconds (or another time) the 262 has 3 or 4 bursts before the lower cannon are out while a Spitfire has 4-6 bursts. A Tempest has even more and both are behind the P-51s and P-47s.
While many planes returned with guns unfired other planes either exhausted their ammo supply on one target or in a few cases engaged multiple targets. Yes it is more important for escorts but the 262 was good for 3-4 firing passes per flight on the bombers, then it is out of ammo.

Some American pilots managed multiple kills in their first combats, in part because they had 20-30 seconds of firing time.
 
If one gets into a turning fight with the Me262, one is not using the a/c's speed advantage.
 
Me 262 could not turn with piston engine fighters but also F4U could not with Zero s but defeated them with boom and zoom tactics.If turning was the desicive factor in air combat Ki 27s would be the no1 fighter. Escort Me262 could jump the escorts P51 ,make them drop the tanks, miss their randevous and possibly shoot some down allowing other gruppen to engange the bombers
I believe 4xMG151/20 was a far better choice for armament .Placed close together in the nose was more than enough to down even B-29s , could engange fighters better, and saved some weight too for additional rockets.
The ultimate solution would be 2x Mk213 C 30mm revolver cannons
 
don't think you want a Me 262 gruppe or even 10 competing with P-51's
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What do you mean by "competing"?

Allied escort fighters don't need to be destroyed. High speed passes will keep P-47s and P-51s busy so they cannot interfere with the German bomber killers. Any Allied fighters destroyed are a bonus.
 
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