Spitfire LF. IX/VIII vs Yak-3
- Thread starter Juha2
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GregP
Major
That would be a good read, I'm sure!
alejandro_
Airman 1st Class
- 281
- Jul 4, 2005
I think this statement has been misunderstood. When Normandie-Niemen was created the pilots were given 3 choices:
- Yak-1
- P-39
- Hurricane.
The Soviet type was chosen. It was rustic, fast and maneouvrable. If you speak French you can see it in this documentary (16:30).
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fu325PK1ew
The unit then stayed with Yakovlev types. The Uk did not supply any of the later versions of Spitfires (Mk XIV).
GregP
Major
Not quite so, per members of the Normandie Nieman Group. They could have had Spitfires.
Our Yak-3 is painted in the Normandie Nieman colors and we have had a former Normandie Nieman member give a talk at the museum. They could have had Spitfires but chose Yak-9s for maneuverability, for the Yak's ability to operate in the cold that the front location could throw at them on a frequent basis, and because on the eastern front Yak parts were more plentiful than Spitfire parts since they were basically fighting alongside the Soviets.
We did extensive research on it and have the Yak painted in original squadron colors and markings. Here it is alongside our Allison-powered P-51A, "Mrs. Virginia."
The two little "shark fins" sticking down in front of and off to the side of the radiator opening on the belly are oil cooler exits.
Our Yak-3 is painted in the Normandie Nieman colors and we have had a former Normandie Nieman member give a talk at the museum. They could have had Spitfires but chose Yak-9s for maneuverability, for the Yak's ability to operate in the cold that the front location could throw at them on a frequent basis, and because on the eastern front Yak parts were more plentiful than Spitfire parts since they were basically fighting alongside the Soviets.
We did extensive research on it and have the Yak painted in original squadron colors and markings. Here it is alongside our Allison-powered P-51A, "Mrs. Virginia."
The two little "shark fins" sticking down in front of and off to the side of the radiator opening on the belly are oil cooler exits.
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alejandro_
Airman 1st Class
- 281
- Jul 4, 2005
Ok thanks for the clarification, but I assume the variants available were those supplied under Lend&Lease. Did this member make any other interesting comments?
Thanks for the photo, very nice.
GregP
Major
I have heard he said that while the Yaks were initially suspected of being less reliable than western counterparts before they got there, it turned out they were quite reliable and were operational generally more often than western types were in very cold conditions. He related the Russian method of adding gasoline to the cold, thick oil to thin it out, and then it evaporated as the engine warmed and was gone by the time they were ready for takeoff, and removing and sleeping with batteries so they stayed warm. He also doubted they would be at the same reliability rate in warmer weather because the radiators were seemingly sized for colder conditions, but they never really found out for sure as it was usually cool when compared with desert, south Pacific, SE Asia, etc.
They REALLY liked the Russian guns as they hit hard and had very good destructive power per projectile. Only a few hits were needed for real damage.
The Russians were friendly but not exactly forthcoming. That is, they wouldn't share any information they weren't ordered to share or give most rations or equipment / supplies that weren't specifically allotted to the group. That included blankets, etc. So it could easily happen that the Soviets might be quite comfortable in the cold while the French were quite freezing. They DID share knowledge of ways to get around the muddy tundra when required to do so, and they could be counted on to share Vodka semi-often in small quantities. Everyone wanted to see pictures of anyone back home, same as us, particularly girlfriends / wives, and shared same.
He related that the Germans they saw were mostly just soldiers who were not really intersted in being there, but the Russians, if they caught some, were somewhat brutal, probably in retalliation for Germans sometimes doing the same to Soviets on the way into Russia. He said it was NOT a good thing to captured during WWII by the Soviet side. He did not mention any prisoners that their own group took, and we nobody asked about that at the time.
Like being on ANY active front, it was great leaving and going home, but he had no desire to ever go back and see the places where they served at that time.
Treat all the above as second-hand information.
They REALLY liked the Russian guns as they hit hard and had very good destructive power per projectile. Only a few hits were needed for real damage.
The Russians were friendly but not exactly forthcoming. That is, they wouldn't share any information they weren't ordered to share or give most rations or equipment / supplies that weren't specifically allotted to the group. That included blankets, etc. So it could easily happen that the Soviets might be quite comfortable in the cold while the French were quite freezing. They DID share knowledge of ways to get around the muddy tundra when required to do so, and they could be counted on to share Vodka semi-often in small quantities. Everyone wanted to see pictures of anyone back home, same as us, particularly girlfriends / wives, and shared same.
He related that the Germans they saw were mostly just soldiers who were not really intersted in being there, but the Russians, if they caught some, were somewhat brutal, probably in retalliation for Germans sometimes doing the same to Soviets on the way into Russia. He said it was NOT a good thing to captured during WWII by the Soviet side. He did not mention any prisoners that their own group took, and we nobody asked about that at the time.
Like being on ANY active front, it was great leaving and going home, but he had no desire to ever go back and see the places where they served at that time.
Treat all the above as second-hand information.
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- Thread starter
- #8
GregP
Major
Happy New Year, Juha!
KiwiBiggles
Senior Airman
I believe the technique of using petrol to dilute the lubricant for startup was fairly common. Quote LJK Setright in "The Power to Fly", talking about the Napier Sabre:
"The proper technique was to resort to oil dilution, a practice regularly employed by the Germans, and a simple tap in the cockpit discharged the correct amount of petrol into the lubricant in order to achieve this."
GregP
Major
Seems funny that if the Germans regularly did it, they couldn't make their planes operational nearly as often as the Soviets could when they were in Russia.
GregP
Major
I think MOST people did gasoline dilution to a degree in cold weather. But Siberia is WAY colder than Germany, and perhaps the Sovietshad "tricks" for getting engines to run in winter they never quite told anyone else. I wouldn't bet against that.
Soviet engines COULD have been a bit looser, but you MAY have noticed that many Soviet airplanes has a sort of "1-way" cylinder on the front of the spinner, where they could hook up a shaft with a cross pin and use a truck with a power takeoff on it to spin the engine over. Think of the Il-2 and the I-16, to name a couple.
I bet that worked a LOT better than the old inertia hand crank on Messerschmitts!
In plain old fact, I don't know why they were able to run when other were shut down. But the Soviets LIVE there and probably know how to make things work much better in severe cold than most other people on earth do, if out of nothing but more exposure to it than most elsewhere. People in very hot, wet, or dry areas learn to cope with THAT, so it sort of makes sense, at least to me.
Soviet engines COULD have been a bit looser, but you MAY have noticed that many Soviet airplanes has a sort of "1-way" cylinder on the front of the spinner, where they could hook up a shaft with a cross pin and use a truck with a power takeoff on it to spin the engine over. Think of the Il-2 and the I-16, to name a couple.
I bet that worked a LOT better than the old inertia hand crank on Messerschmitts!
In plain old fact, I don't know why they were able to run when other were shut down. But the Soviets LIVE there and probably know how to make things work much better in severe cold than most other people on earth do, if out of nothing but more exposure to it than most elsewhere. People in very hot, wet, or dry areas learn to cope with THAT, so it sort of makes sense, at least to me.
- Thread starter
- #14
According to some German pilot memoirs Germans learned that from Soviet PoWs during winter 1941/42. Germans had before relied all kinds of heaters. Later oil dilution became universal, one can find that also e.g. from the P-39Q manual. Of course it is possible that also Yanks (Alaska) and Canadians knew the trick from 20s. IIRC Finns usually used heaters or removed the oil, warm it and put it back again.
alejandro_
Airman 1st Class
- 281
- Jul 4, 2005
Main Soviet engines were based on Western types, either evolutions or production licenses. I am not sure how different the tolerances would be . In this German report on the M-82 it is stated that tolerances and finishing were needed is very good in critical components. On non critical components is more rough
Historia y tecnología militar: Análisis alemán de un motor de aviación soviético M-82
(Use google translate)
Thanks for the information GregP. Juha2, welcome to the forum.
Historia y tecnología militar: Análisis alemán de un motor de aviación soviético M-82
(Use google translate)
Thanks for the information GregP. Juha2, welcome to the forum.
Old Wizard
2nd Lieutenant
I'd say not much better cranking up an inertia starter on a 109 when under attack or need to get airborne fast.
Any combat airfield is going to have at least one ground crew/mechanic assigned to each aircraft, why not use them ?
A lot more than just the Bf 109 used a inertial starter of the WW2 era aircraft.
The Bf 109 just stands out, because the person using it is in such clear view.
You have to hand it to inertial starters, they don't depend on a healthy battery that can get discharged easily, or shotgun cartriges that have to be replaced.
