Spitfire V ME109. I have found these links on the net.

[parsifal]

Dont suck me into this. This looks like one of those strange North American Intiation ceremonies that I have heard of occasionally

 

[Readie]

Dont suck me into this. This looks like one of those strange North American Intiation ceremonies that I have heard of occasionally

I dread to think....

However, at least the Canadians had the wisdom to follow our lead with free national health care.
Being in the Commonwealth and supporters of our Royal family has obviously been a good thing.

If the American had not been so anxious to leave the embrace of her Britannic Majesty you would have had a free health care system too and a Queen.

Cheers
John

 

[stona]

Re ailerons on the Spitfire and Bf109. Both became virtually immovable at high speed. The British thought the Bf109 had a greater problem than the Spitfire but on running comparisons discovered that the force required to move the ailerons at various (high) speeds was comparable. The only advantage the Spitfire pilot had was the ability to exert more force on the control system due to the differing design of the two cockpits. Essentially the Spitfire pilot had slightly more room and his seating position enabled him to apply more muscle to his control column,or in his case the spade grip.
Distortion of fabric covered control surfaces was a problem common to all such systems.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Readie]

Re ailerons on the Spitfire and Bf109. Both became virtually immovable at high speed. The British thought the Bf109 had a greater problem than the Spitfire but on running comparisons discovered that the force required to move the ailerons at various (high) speeds was comparable. The only advantage the Spitfire pilot had was the ability to exert more force on the control system due to the differing design of the two cockpits. Essentially the Spitfire pilot had slightly more room and his seating position enabled him to apply more muscle to his control column,or in his case the spade grip.
Distortion of fabric covered control surfaces was a problem common to all such systems.
Cheers
Steve

A problem sorted early in the Spitfire's career though Steve.
The Spitfire would always turn harder than a ME109 due to its wing design and strenght.
Cheers
John

 

[Readie]

242 Sqn were not fledglings they were put together from RAF guys that were Canadian serving in the UK , most were pre war. The Squadron was designated canadian much like 71 Sqn was desinated American as a propaganda thing for us Maple syrup swilling oafs.Please remember that Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis were considered `black troops`by the RAF not suitable for command and ill disciplined

I'll answer your post tonight when I can refer to my sources.
From memory Bader was put in charge of a battered and demoralised Canadian Squadron who disrepected his rank. Baders way was to demonstrate his skills with a blistering low level display. He won the Canadians around and the rest is history.

Cheers
John

 

[Njaco]

I dread to think....

However, at least the Canadians had the wisdom to follow our lead with free national health care.
Being in the Commonwealth and supporters of our Royal family has obviously been a good thing.

If the American had not been so anxious to leave the embrace of her Britannic Majesty you would have had a free health care system too and a Queen.

Cheers
John

Please don't quote Richard Harris on the advantages of having a Queen!

 

[Readie]

Please don't quote Richard Harris on the advantages of having a Queen!

You could have had a succession of Kings and Queens.
As your history has unfolded I bet that deep inside your rebel hearts you wish you had stayed true to the British Monarchy and remained in our Empire.

The Australians, despite all the talk of a Republic,have stayed loyal to the Crown.

Cheers
John

 

[stona]

A problem sorted early in the Spitfire's career though Steve.
The Spitfire would always turn harder than a ME109 due to its wing design and strenght.
Cheers
John

Turning tighter depends on a lot of things and this isn't the thread for that! A Spitfire couldn't "always turn tighter". In the same tests it didn't,except when flown by pilots who would push it to it's limit,that,in front line squadrons would be a small minority.
These results were a bit of a surprise to the R.A.E. who appear to have had some preconceptions about the Messerschmitt fighter hastily dispelled.

How did they fix the high forces needed to operate the ailerons? All metal ailerons helped but still took some shifting. Removing the wing tips also helped but had a negative effect on other performance features,notably rate of climb. I'm not a Spitfire expert but I think this was an inherent design problem in the Spitfire and many of its contemporaries.

As a "by the way" I'm right in the Dan Dare time slot. Eagle was my comic of choice. Beano and the like were a guilty pleasure!
The Spitfire does of course have a resonance with my generation,I do love to see a Spitfire, but my rational side refuses to buy the myth. It was one of several superb aircraft of its era. Noone had a monopoly on good design or clever innovation.
Cheers
Steve

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dread to think....

However, at least the Canadians had the wisdom to follow our lead with free national health care.
Being in the Commonwealth and supporters of our Royal family has obviously been a good thing.

If the American had not been so anxious to leave the embrace of her Britannic Majesty you would have had a free health care system too and a Queen.

Cheers
John

1. Yeah and the free handouts only brings out the lazy in people.

2. The discussion of healthcare has nothing to do with this topic, lets get back on topic.

3. Our forum has a no politics policy. Lets keep it that way. There is a reason for this.

4. I recommend everyone reads the thread about forum rules.

 

[Kryten]

Re ailerons on the Spitfire and Bf109. Both became virtually immovable at high speed. The British thought the Bf109 had a greater problem than the Spitfire but on running comparisons discovered that the force required to move the ailerons at various (high) speeds was comparable. The only advantage the Spitfire pilot had was the ability to exert more force on the control system due to the differing design of the two cockpits. Essentially the Spitfire pilot had slightly more room and his seating position enabled him to apply more muscle to his control column,or in his case the spade grip.
Distortion of fabric covered control surfaces was a problem common to all such systems.
Cheers
Steve

Bear in mind that report was mentioning the difference when less experienced pilots in the Spit who did not have the confidence to push the spit could not shake off the test pilots in the Me109, pilots of equal ability had no problem shaking off the 109 and that in itself could start a whole new thread, it graphically demonstrates the most importand part of any aircraft is the guy flying it!

 

[Readie]

1. Yeah and the free handouts only brings out the lazy in people.

Can't believe that you really mean that Chris.
As for your other 3 points...you're the boss.
Cheers
John

 

[claidemore]

Twas my intent to use the quote out of context.

With respect you have taken 'finest hour' out of context. Here's more of the famous speech.

...However matters may go in France or with the French Government or with another French Government, we in this island and in the British Empire will never lose our sense of comradeship with the French people. If we are now called upon to endure what they have suffered we shall emulate their courage, and if final victory rewards our toils they shall share the gains, aye. And freedom shall be restored to all. We abate nothing of our just demands—Czechs, Poles, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, all who have joined their causes to our own shall be restored.
What General Weygand has called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be freed and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands.
But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new dark age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves, that if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, This was their finest hour.

Our 'finest hour' included everyone in the British Isles, her Empire and her Commonwealth.

Cheers
John

 

[Lighthunmust]

Please don't quote Richard Harris on the advantages of having a Queen!

As English Bob from "Unforgiven" I assume.

 

[stona]

Bear in mind that report was mentioning the difference when less experienced pilots in the Spit who did not have the confidence to push the spit could not shake off the test pilots in the Me109, pilots of equal ability had no problem shaking off the 109 and that in itself could start a whole new thread, it graphically demonstrates the most importand part of any aircraft is the guy flying it!

Exactly so. Most pilots on the squadrons in 1940/41 did not have the ability or confidence to push the Spitfire anywhere near its limits and my point was that this negated the much vaunted superior turning circle of the Spitfire in the real world.
Douglas Bader was very keen to get his hands on the Bf109F that Pingel kindly delivered to the British as he reckoned a few hours flying by a few experienced combat pilots would be far more useful in quickly devising tactics to counter the new model than the weeks and months of testing and assessments that would be done by the R.A.E. at Farnborough. He wrote a typically undiplomatic letter to the headquarters of 11 Group suggesting exactly what the R.A.E. should ascertain and pass on to Fighter Command and that "Wing Commanders, Flying", that is himself,be given the opportunity to fly the aircraft. He needed to know where the Spitfire was superior (if anywhere) in order to exploit that superiority in combat. Combat pilots knew how marginal these things were.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Readie]

Exactly so. Most pilots on the squadrons in 1940/41 did not have the ability or confidence to push the Spitfire anywhere near its limits and my point was that this negated the much vaunted superior turning circle of the Spitfire in the real world.
Douglas Bader was very keen to get his hands on the Bf109F that Pingel kindly delivered to the British as he reckoned a few hours flying by a few experienced combat pilots would be far more useful in quickly devising tactics to counter the new model than the weeks and months of testing and assessments that would be done by the R.A.E. at Farnborough. He wrote a typically undiplomatic letter to the headquarters of 11 Group suggesting exactly what the R.A.E. should ascertain and pass on to Fighter Command and that "Wing Commanders, Flying", that is himself,be given the opportunity to fly the aircraft. He needed to know where the Spitfire was superior (if anywhere) in order to exploit that superiority in combat. Combat pilots knew how marginal these things were.
Cheers
Steve

Stanford Tuck flew a captured 109 and provided vital feedback on its strenghts abnd weaknesses

 

[claidemore]

Roll rate was improved on the Spitfire by reducing aileron span in the Spit VIII (and subsequent models). Removing wing tips on any Mark Spit gave it a much better roll rate, approaching the ability of the FW190.
With regards to roll rate of Spit I vs Me109E, the Spit had advantage at lower speeds, about equal @300mph, but slightly better @350+. (as per this chart: http://www.spitfireperformance.com/bank45.gif )

I believe the F and G series 109s had changes in their wing which improved their roll rate.

 

[Mustang nut]

Douglas Bader was very keen to get his hands on the Bf109F that Pingel kindly delivered to the British as he reckoned a few hours flying by a few experienced combat pilots would be far more useful in quickly devising tactics to counter the new model than the weeks and months of testing and assessments that would be done by the R.A.E. at Farnborough. He wrote a typically undiplomatic letter to the headquarters of 11 Group suggesting exactly what the R.A.E. should ascertain and pass on to Fighter Command and that "Wing Commanders, Flying", that is himself,be given the opportunity to fly the aircraft. He needed to know where the Spitfire was superior (if anywhere) in order to exploit that superiority in combat. Combat pilots knew how marginal these things were.
Cheers
Steve

Bader was a strange old fish, he wanted to know how to beat the 109 in combat, but also wanted to fly about in groups of 50 in tight formation. That is how not to beat a 109 as flown by the LW.

 

[parsifal]

I would have thought it more as the case of how to overcommit the RAF, win the battle, but lose the campaign.....Being outnumbered has its problems, but it avoids the critical issue of over-commitment

 

[pbfoot]

Bader was a strange old fish, he wanted to know how to beat the 109 in combat, but also wanted to fly about in groups of 50 in tight formation. That is how not to beat a 109 as flown by the LW.

Bull.... if he was that serious he would have changed formations from the Vic to the finger four before mar 41

 

[Readie]

Bull.... if he was that serious he would have changed formations from the Vic to the finger four before mar 41

A lot of wing co's did. But, this adoption was on a ad hoc basis. The finger four was so much superior to the vic, it beggars belief that the RAF could not see it.
Cheers
John