Spitfire XIV vs Bf-109 K-4 vs La-7 vs Yak-3 (1 Viewer)

Which is the best at the below criteria?


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drasticly shortens flight endurance and spark-plug life......
Don't want to get caught up in the argument, but considering you're starting off with maybe a 1000hr engine life, service every 30 say, using that stuff means you might get 750hrs and should service every 10. It doesn't mean your engine fails after a few flights or anything, unless the engine itself can't really cope putting out too much power (which is really just a question of fuel/air combustion limitations for an inline engine of a given construction).

Using 1c Maddox as a source on this point, the AM and ASM engines introduced at the start of 44 (basically just the 605A/AS but modified for high octane fuel and MW-50 use) had a reputedly terrible engine life and could fail during a mission with overuse of the MW-50 system (even within operating guidelines). The D series engines and a virtually interchangeable redevelopment of the AS engine during 1945 were a much different story however, and the additional cooling capacity of the new airframe helped give this model no real faults to speak of, which weren't quirks plaguing the series (it is said the late 109 did not tolerate fools kindly, and killed a few on the runway).

At any rate keep in mind the Gustav remained in combat service with some air forces (Spain, Czechoslovakia) in one form or another well into the 1950's. Their competitors were generally the P-51D Mustang and Mark XIV Spit also exported widely, so put simply they can't have been too bad according to impassive history.
 
1v1, @ sea level , spitfire has strongger dogfight ability. And "a climbing turn" is a spitfire's effective maneuver dealing wirh Bf109 from 1940 BOB to VE day, perhaps not for Spitfie V period.

BTW, Kurfurst said that Spitfire's max output is only within 5 monutes, where is the proof? in all out speed test?


BTW. both Mike Williams and Kurfurst are somewhat subjective. For example, in williams' web site, no comparation of spit V and Bf109F at all.....

Be careful when reading their articles.

For example, kuefurst emphasized that old spit IX are the majority of RAF 44-45,that's right, but they are 25lbs , Kurfurst said " The vast majority of RAF squadrons flew the old Mk IXs until the cease of hostilities, and certainly they felt that 40-50 mph speed differenence between their Mk IX rides and the Luftwaffe G-14/AS, G-10s, K-4s and D-9s." my god, 40-50mph ,that's 18lbs spit IX's performance.

Kurfurst emphasized that Spit XIV are rare/small mumber, that is right, but BF109K and Fw190D are also rare. And those spit XIV can't even find enough enemies, so why Britain produce so many spit XIV? in order to prove RAF's strength? to plug up some oppugn 60 years later? Doesn't a/c producing consume money?
 
I remember LA7 is even lighter than La5fn due to the remove of wood components. around 2600kg?
La-5FN - ~ 3300 kg. "around 2600 kg?" - вот это я не понимаю... :(

On the Soviet-german front air fights doing on 0...5000 (max) m. What "tanks not fly in the cosmos" (c) (Танки в космосе не летают :) ) { I dont'now what this on english say :( ). Il-2 - shtirmovik - max high of fly (от силы) 2000 m. Pe-2 Tu-2 - tactics bobmer - ~2000...4000. B-17, B-24, B-29 - strategic bomber - 5000...9000 m (примерные цифры). "Altitude flight of fighters determine of altitude strike planes" (высота действия истребителей определяется высотой действия ударных машин). Soviet english fighters work on other problem. (Т.е. Советские и Союзнические машины создавались для своих задач). Вот.
P.S.: sorry my english. :oops:
P.P.S.: high quality pictures http://mitya.diinoweb.com/files/My Photo Album/LTX/262.jpg
http://mitya.diinoweb.com/files/My Photo Album/LTX/La-7 vs Spit-14.jpg
P.P.P.S.:
Mitya,

I´m sorry I´m off topic but
congratulation to yesterday´s match Russia-Canada 5:4!
Man, you´re World Champions!
Спасибо, seesul! Thank you!
Ага! РОССИЯ ЧЕМПИОН!!! 1:3... 4:4.. 5:4 !!! Yessssssssssssssss!!!!!!!
 

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That is incorrect, this rate of climb was obtained by a prototype a/c. The Rate of climb of the Spitfire Mk.XIV is 4,800 ft/min at 18 lbs/sq.in. boost.




21 lbs.sq.in. boost wasn't used for anything but chasing V1's, IF it was used at all.



Wrong, the Bf-109 could run at full boost for 10min at a time, the Spitfire could run at full boost at only 5 min at a time.



And at low to medium alt the performance aof the Bf-109 K-4 is better.



To be frank you don't know much glen.

To be candid Soren you haven't demonstrated what you do know..

Education - credits from either vocational school or University applied to Aero Engineering? How far did you progress in math or physics?

Experience - what did you do to apply the knowledge Soren? Airframe Structures? Flight Mechanics? Stability and Control? Aero? Airframe Design? Powerplant? Landing gear design?

What are your credentials to attack Glen? The silence for the last month on these questions are deafening Soren.
 
La-5FN - ~ 3300 kg. "around 2600 kg?" - вот это я не понимаю... :(

On the Soviet-german front air fights doing on 0...5000 (max) m. What "tanks not fly in the cosmos" (c) (Танки в космосе не летают :) ) { I dont'now what this on english say :( ). Il-2 - shtirmovik - max high of fly (от силы) 2000 m. Pe-2 Tu-2 - tactics bobmer - ~2000...4000. B-17, B-24, B-29 - strategic bomber - 5000...9000 m (примерные цифры). "Altitude flight of fighters determine of altitude strike planes" (высота действия истребителей определяется высотой действия ударных машин). Soviet english fighters work on other problem. (Т.е. Советские и Союзнические машины создавались для своих задач). Вот.
P.S.: sorry my english. :oops:
P.P.S.: high quality pictures http://mitya.diinoweb.com/files/My Photo Album/LTX/262.jpg
http://mitya.diinoweb.com/files/My Photo Album/LTX/La-7 vs Spit-14.jpg
P.P.P.S.:
Спасибо, seesul! Thank you!
Ага! РОССИЯ ЧЕМПИОН!!! 1:3... 4:4.. 5:4 !!! Yessssssssssssssss!!!!!!!

Mitya - your english is far better than my Russian - the only small possible correction is that "altitude of strike planes determined the altitude of the fighters (for the US)" It was the bombers, flying at their designed altitudes that determined where the fighters must fly to protect them..

Congratulations on Russia win!
 
the russians are only any good at low level,the me-109 would crash on take off or landing.so the spit is best.yours,starling.

NO!
Starling, you know, what Spit-9 don't use on Soviet VVS, because him characteristic was very bed for Soviet VVS. Spit-9 lose La ~100 km/h on SL. 1198 Spit-9 fliyng on PVO Moscow Leningrad.
Spit was good plane, but he don't very-very good plane. ;)
Spit, La, Me was produce for other VVS and other function.
La-7=Spit-14 for 6000 meter. ;) And you speak what Spit the best? Hm... :shock:
 
Someone (Bill) seems unable to refrain from sidetracking threads, and to be frank it has become a nuisance to the members on this forum. Someone (Bill) also has a hard time getting the message, for example that he is ignored because of his childish and prick like behavior.

And someone (Bill) also knows very little about aerodynamics and its history as he has so thuroughly demonstrated many times by now.

So finally perhaps someone (Bill) should quit being a child and stop sidetracking threads and stop being a prick insulting other members and calling them amateurs when he is infact himself an amateur.
 
Someone (Bill) seems unable to refrain from sidetracking threads, and to be frank it has become a nuisance to the members on this forum. Someone (Bill) also has a hard time getting the message, for example that he is ignored because of his childish and prick like behavior.

Is he the only one? Ask yourself that....

Soren said:
And someone (Bill) also knows very little about aerodynamics and its history as he has so thuroughly demonstrated many times by now.

If he knows very little, then what do you know?

Atleast he posted his credentials. All he has asked for was yours. So where are they?

Lets see:

He has a degree in Aeronautics. He posted his degree to show it. Where is yours?

He has worked in aeronautics and posted his credentials. Where are yours?

He is a pilot and even flown WW2 fighters such as the P-51? Have you?

Basically I am saying before you accuse someone of soemthing, then you better be able to walk the talk.

Soren said:
So finally perhaps someone (Bill) should quit being a child and stop sidetracking threads and stop being a prick insulting other members and calling them amateurs when he is infact himself an amateur.

Someone should practice what they preach...
 
Surprise surprise, I get jumped by Adler, again, despite me AGAIN not starting throwing the mud and AGAIN after another member has been talking the same tone for quite a while.

I don't enter pissing matches, they're childish ridiculous.

And what do I know ? Well I know that aerolasticity was a very well known science before WW2, that the effects of aerolasticity is taken advantage of by a/c designers to improve a/c performance in certain flight envelopes, that the Spitfire didn't have an elliptical lift distribution, that the Bf-109 Spitfire both turned allot better than the P-51, that the Fw-190 featured elliptical lift ditribution in turns. And most importantly I can prove it, Bill can't.

Bill has made ridiculous claims such as the P-51 was close to as good a turn fighter as the Bf-109 Spitfire, that aerolasticity was seen as witchcraft by aerodynamicist during WW2 etc etc.. Which to me sounds like he hasn't opened a book on aerodynamics for quite some time and has become clueless in many of its fields, he's just playing clever.

And as for my credentials they were posted long ago.

And finally as for me not practicing what I preach, examples please, it always seems hard to find these for some reason...
 
Surprise surprise, I get jumped by Adler, again, despite me AGAIN not starting throwing the mud and AGAIN after another member has been talking the same tone for quite a while.

I don't enter pissing matches, they're childish ridiculous.

And what do I know ? Well I know that aerolasticity was a very well known science before WW2, that the effects of aerolasticity is taken advantage of by a/c designers to improve a/c performance in certain flight envelopes, that the Spitfire didn't have an elliptical lift distribution, that the Bf-109 Spitfire both turned allot better than the P-51, that the Fw-190 featured elliptical lift ditribution in turns. And most importantly I can prove it, Bill can't.

Bill has made ridiculous claims such as the P-51 was close to as good a turn fighter as the Bf-109 Spitfire, that aerolasticity was seen as witchcraft by aerodynamicist during WW2 etc etc.. Which to me sounds like he hasn't opened a book on aerodynamics for quite some time and has become clueless in many of its fields, he's just playing clever.

And as for my credentials they were posted long ago.

And finally as for me not practicing what I preach, examples please, it always seems hard to find these for some reason...

Soren all I will say is go and read your own posts.

Boo Hoo if you feel I am picking on you. It does not matter to me, the years of reading your posts brought this upon yourself.

If it is too hot in the kitchen, get out!

Case closed!
 
Anyway Bill has succesfully sidetracked yet another thread, great!
 
Boo Hoo if you feel I am picking on you. It does not matter to me, the years of reading your posts brought this upon yourself.

Hey no worries, sometimes kids need grown ups to look out for them, and you're doing a good job of taking care of Bill so far.

If it is too hot in the kitchen, get out!

Why ? Because of some hotshot I-think-I-know-it-all ? Now way, too stubborn for that.
 
Surprise surprise, I get jumped by Adler, again, despite me AGAIN not starting throwing the mud and AGAIN after another member has been talking the same tone for quite a while.

Check my tone recently, check yours

I don't enter pissing matches, they're childish ridiculous.

You start them Soren and you usually start by denouncing someone as 'clueless'... drop back to some of our classic battles and look at the pattern. I have lost the high ground in the past because I drop into the mud with you. I think I have apologised to other members quite a few times for taking the thread off course with you. Have you done so?

And what do I know ? Well I know that aerolasticity was a very well known science before WW2, that the effects of aerolasticity is taken advantage of by a/c designers to improve a/c performance in certain flight envelopes, that the Spitfire didn't have an elliptical lift distribution, that the Bf-109 Spitfire both turned allot better than the P-51, that the Fw-190 featured elliptical lift ditribution in turns. And most importantly I can prove it, Bill can't.

Taken one at a time. I said in a previous posting some time back that Aeroelasticy was an art in WWII. It was still somewhat of an art when the Comet was designed and the wonderful physics of resonance and aeroelasticity as in (too stiff can be bad for you)..IIRC - the Comet fatigue failures of the 'square' windows was a result of the resonance vibration and subsequent repeat/reverse harmonic loads on the airframe

Aeroelasticity was not considered in the design of the F-4 wings, that had to be replaced for the same reasons - over stiff structure leading to fatigue failures... or in the case of the early Spitfires, understiff wings leading to torsion caused by aileron loads further leading to control reversals.. or in the case of the 190, too much wing torsion (undesigned or anticipated) in the wing (according to the reference Lednicer cited) under high G turn causing the violent stall.

Note - I Have NOT read the actual German 1944 report and I so stated. Lednicer references both the report and the gist of the report in his report.

I'll deviate on the lecture briefly to explain to your genius level knowledge that resonance leads to harmonic reversible loads (and/or outright structural failure) - which leads to much lower DESIGN limit stress thresholds, which if ignored leads to fatigue failures

Are you with me still?

A helicopter is a classic example but anything designed at a structural frequency near the persistent input force (for you, an example is the two per rev beat of a Huey rotor). Anything associated with the Pylon Structures on a Huey or Cobra, for example, were designed to Limit loads often as low os 1/3 of the capability of 2024 and 7075 under normal conditions


Next - the Spitfire, with an eliptical wing, does not have a pure elliptical lift distribution, but a lot closer than the 51 and the Fw 190A and D.. I pointed out examples of the spanwise lift distribution presented in one of Lednicer's plots. Had you been able to comprehend his points or even the plot you would have possibly avoided jamming your foot into your mouth

Next - to even the least knowledgable but enthusiastic studiers of the art of wing design, the twist at the tip for the wing chord is to ensure that the tip region (simply for you, the aileron area) of the wing stalls last, with stall starting inboard and moving out board. To those pilots on this forum that means when we screw up and lose ability to fly say, on final approach, we want to sink - not roll.

You are free to be you, Soren, and think it is all about giving the Fw 190 'elliptical lift' distribution in high G turns. You are equally free to 'prove your thesis' and now that you have said you can, please do not complain when I follow you around on this commitment.

Very specifically - we do NOT design twist to develop 'elliptical' lift distribution as you posed for the Fw 190 a week or so ago. And last on this subject the twist is to SPECIFICALLY alter the chord angle of attack Downward so that the relative angle of attack in the outer wing doesn't stall when the inboard region reaches the stalling angle of attack.

With me so for?


Bill has made ridiculous claims such as the P-51 was close to as good a turn fighter as the Bf-109 Spitfire, that aerolasticity was seen as witchcraft by aerodynamicist during WW2 etc etc.. Which to me sounds like he hasn't opened a book on aerodynamics for quite some time and has become clueless in many of its fields, he's just playing clever.

Go back and find any post in which I ever said that a 51 Out Turns or is even equivalent in turns, to a Spitfire. You won't find it, like your academic and industry 'credentials' - simply because they don't exist.

Further, I have said that the 51 is equivalent in turn to the 109, sometimes better depending on high altitude and speed, sometimes not quite as good at medium altitudes. You have shouted everyone down on this subject but never presented one shred of proof to justify your claim that the 109 is superior... btw your 'math' does not constitute proof of anything


And as for my credentials they were posted long ago.

As now a buried treasure with no map? Can you find the treasure again?

And finally as for me not practicing what I preach, examples please, it always seems hard to find these for some reason...

I would reference your recent attacks on Glen as a solid example of the "Soren Method" of contempt for those that don't agree with you.

I believe you have a fondness for the noun 'pri*k' when civility leaves the stage?

How many do you want me to find?
 
Soren, that's 1.98ata boost BF109k4, 1945 early.
18lbs spitfire XIV is of 1944 early, and whole year between them.

If you feel fair to compare 18lbs Spit with 1.98ata K4, please modify the top speed of spitfire from 595km/h to 575km/h, 18lbs spitfire is not so fast.:)
BTW, MW50 is philter, harmful to BF109's engine. LOL

These are fair comments. If your going to compare the 1.98 K4 against anything, then compare it to the Spit 21.

As an aside, does anyone know the performance of the K4 without the MW50. In many ways this is at least as important as the 'dash' speed
 

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