StG44 vs AK-47

[Clay_Allison]

Sure. No one wanted to adopt a calibre of a defeated hated super power.

on the other hand the 7.92x57 Mauser was used for the remainder of the decade with '98 Mauser knockoffs and even the FN-49 semi-auto rifles chambered for it. The 7.92x57 was adopted by more countries after the war (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Egypt, Israel, among others) than any WWII rifle cartridge with the exception of the 7.62x54R (Soviet).

 

[Soren]

on the other hand the 7.92x57 Mauser was used for the remainder of the decade with '98 Mauser knockoffs and even the FN-49 semi-auto rifles chambered for it. The 7.92x57 was adopted by more countries after the war (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Egypt, Israel, among others) than any WWII rifle cartridge with the exception of the 7.62x54R (Soviet).

Lets take a look at how many weapons in the world were chambered in the 7.92x57mm round and how many counrties had set up factories to produce that round by this time as compared to the 7.92x33mm Kurz which entered production first in 1943, and that exclusively in Germany, and then I think you'll find the answer for that difference

Fact is the StG44 has some advantages over the Ak47 and vice versa. The StG44's advantages over the AK47 are that it is more accurate and controllable in automatic fire whilst at the same time featuring virtually the same RoF and power of the AK-47. It's disadvantages are its higher weight, larger size and more expensive manufacturing cost. (The AK is also more rugged, but that is a mood point since the AK is more rugged than any other weapon on earth pretty much) In short the StG44 was waay ahead of its time. The basic design is what you see in the G3, which is what the StG44 eventually evolved into.

 

[davebender]

The AK-47 design is about 5 years newer then the StG44. It should surprise no one that it's superior.

The real question is why newer weapons like the M-14 and original model M-16 are inferior to the AK-47 as standard infantry rifles.

 

[Amsel]

I really can't see that the M-14 is inferior to the AK-47. I have both rifles and the M-14 is just as rugged, much more accurate, powerful, and much more versatile then the AK-47.

But when comparing the AK to the M-14 one needs to note that the AK is an assault rifle while the M-14 is whats called a Main Battle Rifle.

 

[Clay_Allison]

It's disadvantages are its higher weight, larger size and more expensive manufacturing cost. (The AK is also more rugged, but that is a mood point since the AK is more rugged than any other weapon on earth pretty much)

There you go. The advantages of the Stg44 are fairly meaningless considering that the assault rifle concept for 40 years was to use assault rifles to get useful firepower into the hands of masses of conscripted soldiers. No country is going to adopt an expensive, complicated, heavy, semi-reliable weapon as an assault rifle.

M-14s, G3s, FALs and Dragunovs were made to provide power and accuracy. IMO the G3 is the best of the battle rifles, and if the actions are related, that's where the Stg44 really shines.

 

[Civettone]

The StG44 was an interim design. It was to be superceded by the StG45 during May 1945. If Germany had survived WWII intact the Cold War would see NATO armed with the StG45 plus the original 7.92mm Kurz FN FAL vs the Warsaw Pact armed with the AK-47.

Sturmgewehr 45
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StG_45(M)
Type Assault rifle
Place of origin Nazi Germany

Service history
In service May 1945
Used by Nazi Germany

Production history
Designed 1944
Produced 1945
Number built 30

Specifications
Weight 5.22 kg (11.5 lb)
Length 940 mm (37 in)
Barrel length 419 mm (16.5 in)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cartridge 7.92x33mm Kurz
Action Roller-delayed blowback
Rate of fire 350-450 rounds/min
Muzzle velocity 685 m/s (2,247 ft/s)
Effective range 300 m
Feed system 10 or 30-round detachable box magazine
Sights Rear: V-notch; front: hooded post

Interesting that you mention the StG 45. When I saw this thread that is also what I was going to mention.

I however disagree about the weight: the StG 45 was going to be lighter than the StG 44 ! Empty the gun probably weighs around 4 kg.

I once read that the StG 45 was rejected because of how it ejected the bullets... dunno.

Kris

 

[tomo pauk]

on the other hand the 7.92x57 Mauser was used for the remainder of the decade with '98 Mauser knockoffs and even the FN-49 semi-auto rifles chambered for it. The 7.92x57 was adopted by more countries after the war (Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Egypt, Israel, among others) than any WWII rifle cartridge with the exception of the 7.62x54R (Soviet).

(I'll answer to the question in a more specific way then Soren did)
7,92 x 57 (as well as the Austro-Hungarian 8mm) were THE rifle rounds in Central Europe for almost 100 years. Kingdom of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia simlply continued to use what was on hand, and their inter-war rifles were chambered to a 'natural' choice. After the WW2 they just carried on*, with Czech rifles ending in Mid East.

7,92 Kurz was produced by Nazi Germany, and there were only captured examples of StG-44 that were used in hands of other armies past WW2. There were small series produced in Czechoslovakia Argentina, but those are exceptions to the rule (Czechs simply continued to use the machines from WW2).

*Post-WW2 Yougoslavia produced the MG-42 as M-53 machine gun, then they used MP-40and PPSH to produce their MP, the M-48 rifle was a copy of German Kar-98 etc.

 

[tomo pauk]

Forgot to add that 7,92 x 57 was the caliber of coax MGs for British tanks during the WW2.

 

[Clay_Allison]

(I'll answer to the question in a more specific way then Soren did)
7,92 x 57 (as well as the Austro-Hungarian 8mm) were THE rifle rounds in Central Europe for almost 100 years. Kingdom of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia simlply continued to use what was on hand, and their inter-war rifles were chambered to a 'natural' choice. After the WW2 they just carried on*, with Czech rifles ending in Mid East.

7,92 Kurz was produced by Nazi Germany, and there were only captured examples of StG-44 that were used in hands of other armies past WW2. There were small series produced in Czechoslovakia Argentina, but those are exceptions to the rule (Czechs simply continued to use the machines from WW2).

*Post-WW2 Yougoslavia produced the MG-42 as M-53 machine gun, then they used MP-40and PPSH to produce their MP, the M-48 rifle was a copy of German Kar-98 etc.

My point was that the 7.92 Kurtz being a "dirty Nazi caliber" had nothing to do with why the Stg44 was not more directly copied.

The reason is that NATO still wanted a battle rifle and the Soviets were adopting the AK47 and SKS (being cheaper and more reliable weapons).

 

[Soren]

The reason was that it was a lot easier to stick with the 7.62 caliber and build a new weapon around it than to reequip the whole industry to produce a more advanced and complex design with a different caliber round. It was all about money, nothing about weapon performance. And it paid off well enough as-well, as the AK-47 is undoubtedly while a very crude and simple weapon, one of the best ever produced.

 

[davebender]

1919.
German Rifle Testing Commission advocates adoption of a short cased cartridge and new rifle. The Versallies Treaty puts this project on hold.

1927.
DWM conducts tests of short cased rifle cartridges. With French troops occupying the Saar and Ruhr I assume this project went nowhere.

1938.
Polte Patronenfabrik awarded contract to develop a short cased infantry cartridge. By this point in time Germany has re-established defenses along the border with France. Hence this program can be pushed to completion.

1939.
HWaA issues a contract for development of a "machine carbine". It will be chambered for the new 7.92mm Kurz cartridge.

1942. Walther MKb.43(W). The first German assault rifle. Prototypes only.

1944. StG44. The second German assault rifle. 400,000+ produced.

May 1945. StG45. The third German assault rifle. Prototypes only. However it was intended for mass production.

1950s. CETME assault Rifle.
Designed by Ludwig Vorgrimler who had previously designed the StG45. If Germany remains intact after WWII then this will probably be their equivalent to the Soviet AK-47. It would remain chambered for the 7.92mm Kurz. At least that's my best wild guess.

 

[Clay_Allison]

The reason was that it was a lot easier to stick with the 7.62 caliber and build a new weapon around it than to reequip the whole industry to produce a more advanced and complex design with a different caliber round. It was all about money, nothing about weapon performance. And it paid off well enough as-well, as the AK-47 is undoubtedly while a very crude and simple weapon, one of the best ever produced.

The caliber isn't important. If the Stg44 was that awesome it could have been chambered in a new 7.62, or even in .30 Remington. As it was it was an expensive rifle that fit a niche the West wasn't interested in yet.

 

[Soren]

The caliber isn't important. If the Stg44 was that awesome it could have been chambered in a new 7.62, or even in .30 Remington. As it was it was an expensive rifle that fit a niche the West wasn't interested in yet.

Well it was awesome, it's just that some didn't realize this whilst others weren't willing to pay the money to produce it and would rather choose a cheaper way at achieving something roughly similar.

 

[davebender]

That isn't true. The StG44 was dirt cheap compared to the M1 Garand used by the American Army. The StG45 would have been cheaper still. Let's look at a few small arm prices. I have assumed an American dollar = 2.5 German marks.

$24. MP40 SMG.
$26. StG44 Assault Rifle.
$28. 7.92mm Mauser 98k rifle.
$70. Thompson SMG. Spring 1942 price.
$83. M1 Garand rifle. July 1942 Winchester.
$100. MG42 Machinegun.
$131. MG34 Machinegun. Tripod costs an additional $160.

 

[Clay_Allison]

Do you have unit costs for the M1 Carbine?

 

[davebender]

WWIIReenacting.co.uk Forums • View topic - U.S. Carbine Cal. 30 M1....

Inland Division of General Motors average manufacturing cost: $39.60 per M-1 Carbine
Winchester Repeating Arms Co. average manufacturing cost: $37.75 per M-1 Carbine
Underwood-Elliot-Fisher average manufacturing cost: $47.82 per M-1 Carbine
Rock-Ola average manufacturing cost: $58.00 per M-1 Carbine
Quality Hardware Machine Corp. average manufacturing cost: $45.52 per M-1 Carbine
Saginaw Steering Gear Division of General Motors average manufacturing cost: $38.00 per M-1 Carbine
National Postal Meter average manufacturing cost: $69.43 per M-1 Carbine
Standard Products average manufacturing cost: $53.79 per M-1 Carbine
International Business Machines(IBM)average manufacturing cost: $39.60 per M-1 Carbine

Looks like about $40 per M1 carbine. About half the price of an M1 Garand rifle.

the M1 Carbine gas system was developed by a convicted murderer while in prison

And I thought prisoners were only good for making license plates.

 

[Clay_Allison]

I don't trust 1944-45 cost estimates. Desperation makes people work whether they are paid or not.

 

[parsifal]

Is there any difference in the production costs of the two weapons......I have read that the STG made extensive use of stampings to minimize expensive machining costs. The AK wins this in spades over most modern western design, which from a procurement cost point of view appear to have lost the plot in many ways (IMO)

 

[davebender]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StG_45(M)

Compared to the StG44's cost of 70 Reichsmarks, the StG45(M)'s calculated cost was 45 Reichsmarks.

If we assume 2.5 marks per American dollar.....
$28. StG44.
$18. StG45.

I doubt the AK-47 cost less to produce then the StG45. Heck the StG45 only costs $3 more then an American M1911 .45 cal pistol.

Like the Me-109 fighter aircraft, StG44 and StG45 assault rifles were dirt cheap mass production marvels.

 

[tomo pauk]

AK-47 version using metal stampings was the AKM-47. So the StG-44 holds some 20 years advantage over AK in that area.