StG44 vs AK-47

[Civettone]

I guess that depends on how you define "minor". The StG44 action is gas operated. The StG45 action is operated by roller-delayed blowback.

Quite right. The same can be said about the MG 45. All in all, the StG 44 was already dirt cheap with all these stamped parts and plastic. The StG 45 even more but the main difference was this simple roller-delay.


But again ... according to Handrichs "Sturmgewehr!" the fact that the StG 45 ejected the cartridges top right was one of the reasons why the weapon was rejected: gunners position was too easy to recognize.

Kris

 

[davebender]

That's pretty easy to change.

 

[timshatz]

Now on a more serious note I did carry an MG3 for about 5 km (ca. 2.8 miles) once, and that over some pretty rough terrain. The MG3 weighes about 11 kg (24.5 lbs), and that was pretty tough as far as I can remember. (Remember that I was carrying about 25 kg of gear on top of this)

It adds up. One of the reasons I stayed out of the Army was all that walking with 80lbs on my back. That, and rain (it always seems to be raining). And mud. And crapping in a hole. And MREs. And....

There were more than enough reasons to pick a nice ship over a wet foxhole. Honestly, how they get you guys do to that....

 

[davebender]

I served 6 years in the USN followed by 14 years in the full time Army National Guard (AGR program). Overall I liked the Army better then the Navy. Both had a few good points and plenty of bad points. But the military retirement package is nice. 8)

 

[Soren]

It adds up. One of the reasons I stayed out of the Army was all that walking with 80lbs on my back. That, and rain (it always seems to be raining). And mud. And crapping in a hole. And MREs. And....

There were more than enough reasons to pick a nice ship over a wet foxhole. Honestly, how they get you guys do to that....

Haha, well to be honest I'd just end up boring my ass off on any ship, plus the thought of having to clean those latrines! I've heard wild stories about those things flushing in the wrong direction! Yikes! Then a wet foxhole seems a lot nicer

 

[timshatz]

Less BS in the Army than in the Navy, grant you that. Especially these days.

Dave, What was the AGR Program? Never heard of it.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It adds up. One of the reasons I stayed out of the Army was all that walking with 80lbs on my back. That, and rain (it always seems to be raining). And mud. And crapping in a hole. And MREs. And....

There were more than enough reasons to pick a nice ship over a wet foxhole. Honestly, how they get you guys do to that....

I was in the Army, I never did any of that. I had a nice 6x6 Gator to ferry me and the rest of the crew out to my helicopter. The most I carried was a flight bag, a 9 mm, an M-4 an M-60 and 1000 rounds of ammo. I carried that about 4 feet from the Gator to my helicopter.



Oh wait I did carry some heavy stuff and rucked it in Basic though...

 

[timshatz]

I was in the Army, I never did any of that. I had a nice 6x6 Gator to ferry me and the rest of the crew out to my helicopter. The most I carried was a flight bag, a 9 mm, an M-4 an M-60 and 1000 rounds of ammo. I carried that about 4 feet from the Gator to my helicopter.



Oh wait I did carry some heavy stuff and rucked it in Basic though...

Come on man, Army Aviation doesn't count. After basic, the longest hike you took was from the barracks to the chow hall! I'm talking nuts and bolts, heavy, straight leg infantry. The guys who look up at the sky when it's raining and say something like "This is real infantry weather". 8)

To my mind, those guys really earn their pay.

Not that Army Air doesn't. Way I look at THAT, they might just as well paint a bullseye on the side of your chopper. Everybody in range takes a pop and you are very obvious. Nah, that to me is a different deal. The golden BB, fugitive from the laws of averages and all that. On the ground, you can duck, dodge or just plain hide. Camo works. Never seen a helicopter that was convincingly painted to mimic a cloud.

Plus, people put a lot of thought into killing infantry. But they really go to work when it comes to wrecking the equipment (aka, the helicopter). Take a helicopter for instance (as long as we're on the subject and the thread has drifted). You have all the stuff that ruin your day that the ground pounders do, PLUS, all sorts of other little goodies that are made just for you. AAA, SAMs, Heat Seekers, ect. It's enough to make you feel special.

Not like being in a tank. Tanks are like Mongo from "Blazing Saddles". "Don't shoot him, you'll only make him mad". Very tough to kill and very, very powerful. Helicopters, just as dangerous (if not more so 'cause they get rather bent when you take pot shots at their own and tend to have faster moving family members hanging around) but easier to "get at". Plus, they are usually in a hurry to go somewhere. Occasionally, they are hanging around where you are. Then, it's best to be cool. 'Cause when they're interested, it is not a good idea to spike their curiosity.

If I had done Army time, something mechanical like a Helicopter or Tank would've been my gig (most likely a helicopter, given my love of aviation). Anything but walking and humping a load. Even given the stuff I wrote above, I just don't dig the 80lb ruck.

Ok, I'm done. Long day, and I'm rambling.

 

[lesofprimus]

Ive humped and jumped with alot of sh!t strapped to my body in my days with the Teams, and I can tell u this, from a Special Operations point of view, the weight of ur main weapon matters....

Also, the ease in which it breaks down is especially important, cause a clean weapon will save ur life one day....

To get back to the topic, Im not quite sure how resistant the StG was to dirt/filth/mud/water, but I know the AK would fire everytime I needed it to.... I cant say that of many weapons Ive used...

Question regarding barrel life, I wonder what the steel tolerances for the StG vs. the AK are...

 

[davebender]

Army Regulation 135-18
The Active Guard Reserve (AGR) Program.
http://www.calguard.ca.gov/cahr/Documents/Pubs/agr/r135_18 10Dec03.pdf

In a nutshell....
Most members of the Army National Guard and Army Reserve are part time soldiers. They train one weekend per month plus a two week period during the summer.

Each company size National Guard unit has a handful of full time solders. Typically
.....1 x unit clerk. Normally E-4 or E-5.
.....1 x supply sergeant. Normally E-6.
.....1 x training NCO. Normally E-6.
.....1 x readiness NCO. Normally E-7.
These personnel are full time soldiers with the same pay and benefits as other full time solders. However they are permanently attached to a state national guard HQ (Michigan in my case). I started as an E-5 assistant training NCO and retired as an E-7 readiness NCO.

As a training NCO I rarely got to work in my MOS (Military Occupation Specialty). I wrote training schedules, prepared mobilization plans, processed security clearance applications, submitted school applications, coordinated the loan of equipment for training, prepared unit status reports etc.

 

[Soren]

Ive humped and jumped with alot of sh!t strapped to my body in my days with the Teams, and I can tell u this, from a Special Operations point of view, the weight of ur main weapon matters....

I absolutely agree, but a 5 kg weapon is more than acceptable. The std. AK-47, which is a small weapon, weighs 4.3 kg empty compared to the 4.62 kg of the StG44. The std. British service rifle L85 weighes ca. 5.5 kg loaded.

Also, the ease in which it breaks down is especially important, cause a clean weapon will save ur life one day....

Very true, and the StG44 scores high marks here.

To get back to the topic, Im not quite sure how resistant the StG was to dirt/filth/mud/water, but I know the AK would fire everytime I needed it to.... I cant say that of many weapons Ive used...

The StG44 was/is very reliable, esp. if properly maintained. But the StG44 was built to tighter tolerances than the AK-47 ever has been, and this affects reliability not in a positive way. I simply don't think anything has the reputation the AK-47 has within this field, I mean you can do just about anything to that weapon and it'll still fire.

Question regarding barrel life, I wonder what the steel tolerances for the StG vs. the AK are...

The same for both I'd say, although MP43/1's no doubt have a longer barrel life than both.

 

[parsifal]

well, having had a few shots fired at me over the years, during Boarding and search operations, my number one priority was not running out of ammunition at the wrong moment. It never happened to me, but I could think of nothing worse that having your weapon go click, when you wanted it to go bang

 

[tomo pauk]

Question regarding barrel life, I wonder what the steel tolerances for the StG vs. the AK are...

It depends if the inner part of the barrel received chrome treatment or not. Most of ex-Yu copies (M-70 was the name) didn't have chromium-treated barrels, so the throughout cleaning was necessary. OTOH, the Russian pieces I've received back in 1990's war had chromium, so I was thrilled

Don't know about StG-44 OTOH...

 

[lesofprimus]

StG44 5.22 kg = 11.5 lbs
AK47 4.3kg = 9.47 lbs with empty mag

2 pounds makes a difference Soren when ur humpin 75 lbs on ur back...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Come on man, Army Aviation doesn't count. After basic, the longest hike you took was from the barracks to the chow hall! I'm talking nuts and bolts, heavy, straight leg infantry. The guys who look up at the sky when it's raining and say something like "This is real infantry weather". 8)

Oh I hear you, I was only poking some fun at you.

To my mind, those guys really earn their pay.

Not that Army Air doesn't.

Oh we earn our pay too. Every time we carry the wounded out so they may live another day, every time we pick up the infantry up out of the LZ and fly him home (then we are his best friend), every time we give air support when they are in a fire fight (the infantry buys us beer afterwards).

Besides Aviation gets all the girls anyhow. Women can not resist the two foot zipper!

You are correct on one thing though, we are way off topic...

 

[timshatz]

Army Regulation 135-18
The Active Guard Reserve (AGR) Program.
http://www.calguard.ca.gov/cahr/Documents/Pubs/agr/r135_18 10Dec03.pdf

In a nutshell....
Most members of the Army National Guard and Army Reserve are part time soldiers. They train one weekend per month plus a two week period during the summer.

Each company size National Guard unit has a handful of full time solders. Typically
.....1 x unit clerk. Normally E-4 or E-5.
.....1 x supply sergeant. Normally E-6.
.....1 x training NCO. Normally E-6.
.....1 x readiness NCO. Normally E-7.
These personnel are full time soldiers with the same pay and benefits as other full time solders. However they are permanently attached to a state national guard HQ (Michigan in my case). I started as an E-5 assistant training NCO and retired as an E-7 readiness NCO.

As a training NCO I rarely got to work in my MOS (Military Occupation Specialty). I wrote training schedules, prepared mobilization plans, processed security clearance applications, submitted school applications, coordinated the loan of equipment for training, prepared unit status reports etc.

Essentially gives you the opportunity to move into the ANG from the Regular forces? Seems pretty smart as the program allows the ANG to attract guys who are USN, USA, USMC and USMC and USAF. Did it work witht he reserve components of those services or was it just Regulars?

 

[Soren]

StG44 5.22 kg = 11.5 lbs
AK47 4.3kg = 9.47 lbs with empty mag

2 pounds makes a difference Soren when ur humpin 75 lbs on ur back...

While I agree that 2 pounds matters, I will have to point out that the StG44 weighes just 300 grams more than the AK-47 fully loaded Les, that's not even 1 pound. Fully loaded the AK-47 weighes 4.93 kg (full mag) where'as the StG44 weighes 5.22 kg (full mag).

I've been carrying the L85 with 30 kg on my back, and I've also carried the G3 with 30 kg on my back. No difference felt by me at all. And the British L85 weighes 5.5 kg fully loaded. I remember we had a 40 mile or so march to make in 20 hours with this kind of packing. Not easy, but do'able.

 

[lesofprimus]

I wasnt aware that the 5.22kg was fully loaded.... Changes the game slightly....

 

[parsifal]

I have to admit that my source, which is not that great, so i bow to your source if you can confirm it, says the STG was 5.1 kg unloaded, although it does say that the weapon was lightened up later on....Perhaps your figure relates to these later, lightened versions, whilst the figure quoted in my reference is for the earlier heavier version?????

 

[davebender]

opportunity to move into the ANG from the Regular forces?

Probably half or more of National Guard solders have active duty military service. In my case I joined the National Guard as a "weekend warrior" after being discharged from the Navy. 17 months later I was accepted into the full time AGR program.