GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
And somehow missed the nose armor on the Mustang, unlike that Bell product...
Supermarine fighters after the Spitfire?
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
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Again NAA had the smarts, they put the engine there, the Brits were stuck with a plane that had the engine at the front, too funnny.
ww2restorer
Airman 1st Class
- 239
- May 28, 2011
A British specification!!!
The British wanted more Curtiss P-40s to be produced by North American Aviation, if I recall, but NAA decided to design a new aircraft instead.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
*sshhhh* don't tell anyone, but the Mustang actually did have nose armor between the spinner and engine!
Thumpalumpacus
Major
One F-16 rolled off the floor every 6-10 days when I was stationed at Carswell. The acceptance test-flights were beauties to behold -- if off-duty, we'd grab a beer and go out on the barracks balcony for a ten-minute, one-plane airshow, even after we knew their entire program.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
*sshhhh* don't tell anyone, but the Mustang actually did have nose armor between the spinner and engine!
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I was kinda' tryin' to make a point.
Admiral Beez
Major
And in the end the RAF operated only about a thousand of the Merlin-powered Mustangs. I expect had Bomber Command been ordered to fly at daytime the RAF would have ordered (or produced) more Mustangs for their own use.British order, US design, a combination made in... well... wartime...
We have discussed this before. Bomber Command did fly many operations in daylight from Aug 1944 to the end of the war with many squadrons of Mustangs available to support them
Admiral Beez
Major
Yes, my point was that had Bomber Command been ordered to fly its heavy four engined bomber missions over Europe mostly at daytime, the RAF may have procured more Mustangs. I don't mean to suggest that Bomber Command NEVER flew daylight combat missions with its heavies.
Here's an interesting article, https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1433&context=cmh
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The RAF got more than 1000 Merlin Mustangs but maybe not in the critical period of 1944. The thing is with night time bombing is that at this time of year there isnt enough night time. It is now almost 10PM here and still daylight, though not broad daylight. It wil start getting light again at 3.30to 4 AM tomorrow and there is more light at 20,000ft. The RAF couldnt "procure" more Mustangs, they were Lend Lease, with 20/20 hindsight they should have taken the drawings as soon as they were made and told either Hawkers or Supermarine to make it.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Around late June, nautical twilight begins over an hour before sunrise and lasts over an hour after sunset - that tacks nearly three hours onto a fifteen hour day.
And that depends on how far north you are. It is now 11.15 PM here and if ou look at the ground it is dark but not impossible to see, the sky and cloud formations are still clearly visible, it isnt dark up there, but I am in North England not the industrial areas of Germany.
There used to be a "thing" people did here, the Lyke Wake Walk, it was later discouraged because it was damaging the moors. Basically you walk from one side of the moor to the other, a distance of 42 miles, which has to be done in 24 hours. The best way to do it is to start before sunset, and walk though the "night" when you are fresh, when you start to get tired and maybe have problems you are in the middle of the day and help is easier to find. I did it on the 21st June, the day of the solstice or the "longest day". When you become used to the half light it is actually only properly "black dark" for about 90 minutes to two hours here at this time of year.
Did anyone in the UK "own" the P-51 design? Normally the design rights of an aircraft belongs to the company who created the the design, in this case NAA?
In any case I doubt if either Hawker or Supermarine had the production capacity to even license assemble the P-51 in the UK.
Oh I wasnt saying it was owned as a design by the British just that is what should have been done. There were plans oor discussions to produce the P-51 in UK so it was possible, who pays what for what is another discussion. The factory that produced Spitfires also produced some Lancasters and Hawkers had all sorts of factories making planes or waiting to make planes, the Hurricane was in production until 1944, there cant be an argument as to which was better in 1943 - 44 between a Hurricane and a P-51.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I doubt anyone outside the US "owned" design rights, Bill M could probably address that better. If this scenario happened in hindsight, I'm sure there would have been a licensing agreement.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Another consideration regarding British built Mustangs - the Allison powered version was not in great demand due to it's limitations.
It would be the Merlin powered variant that would be in great demand, but early in the war they didn't know this.
Add to that, the US wasn't within reach of Axis bombers, had a strong manufacturing base and an uninterrupted material supply chain.
It would be the Merlin powered variant that would be in great demand, but early in the war they didn't know this.
Add to that, the US wasn't within reach of Axis bombers, had a strong manufacturing base and an uninterrupted material supply chain.
Shortround6
Major General
Because of the state of the art you have several different conflicting requirements even in 1942-44.
They knew that jets were fuel hogs so escort fighter jets were out, they had hopes but it took years to get economical jet engines.
So can you make a piston engine escort fighter fast enough to defend against poor/mediocre jets?
In the immediate post war period are you looking for interceptors to defend against high performance small piston bomber (TU-2) or B-29 clones (Tu-4s)
Do you need four 20mm Hispanos or do you need six 20mm or four 30mm guns and what kind of 20mm guns. Took the British until 1953 to sort out the 30mm guns.
Building jets to escort Lincolns doesn't make much sense unless you perfect inflight refueling for the fighters.
England spent a lot of time building experimental aircraft after the war. I don't know if there was a shortage of wing tunnels or if they were being cautious or what.
Maybe the British didn't get their fair share of the sweep wing data from Germany?
See Supermarine Attacker
See Supermarine 510, Attacker with swept wing and tail, still with tail wheel landing gear.
See Supermarine 517, = 510 with variable incidence tail, tail dragger
See Supermarine 528 = pretty much the same as the 517
See Supermarine 535 = 528 with longer nose, tricycle landing gear and afterburner.
See Supermarine Swift = 528 with the Nene engine pulled and an Avon dropped in (and a bunch of details)
But that took from 1944 for start of work on the Attacker to 1946 for the contract for the 510 to 1951 for the prototype Swift to 1952 for the 1st production swift to 1954 for the first service squadron. And it took a while to sort the Swift out.
The Axial jet engines took long to sort out that originally thought so some delays were outside of the airframe makers control. Budget cuts also delayed things.
