Supreme long range escort of the war - P-38L or P-47N?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That would be a good assessment. Maybe we can find the info on that.

 

[syscom3]

I will go for the P-47N, since there seems to be a considerable gap
in crit Mach figures of both planes. Don´t take me wrong, but jets may be a serious thread but with 0.67 crit Mach, even a N1K1 or Ki-61 may dive AND maneuvre at speeds, at which the Lightning cannot perform (The P-47N otherwise could). Same goes for Fw-190 (longnose) and Bf-109G10 and later ones. High altitude sorties would make this even more problematic because the Mach stage is higher there at similar TAS compared to lower altitudes.
The armement of eight 0.50 M3 is also quite a striking arguement for the P-47N.

The P38L's had dive brakes as to allow them to dive without going out of control.

The four centerline .50's of the P38 were just as deadly as the eight .50's of the P47. The P38's didnt have a convergence issue and could deliver more "lead" on target

 

[wmaxt]

I will go for the P-47N, since there seems to be a considerable gap
in crit Mach figures of both planes. Don´t take me wrong, but jets may be a serious thread but with 0.67 crit Mach, even a N1K1 or Ki-61 may dive AND maneuvre at speeds, at which the Lightning cannot perform (The P-47N otherwise could). Same goes for Fw-190 (longnose) and Bf-109G10 and later ones. High altitude sorties would make this even more problematic because the Mach stage is higher there at similar TAS compared to lower altitudes.
The armement of eight 0.50 M3 is also quite a striking arguement for the P-47N.

The P38L's had dive brakes as to allow them to dive without going out of control.

The four centerline .50's of the P38 were just as deadly as the eight .50's of the P47. The P38's didnt have a convergence issue and could deliver more "lead" on target

I've read the guns on a P-38 were good at a 1,000 yards as in the Yamamoto shoot down.

The dive brakes were also worth 10 to 15 degrees "kick" in the angle of attack of the P-38. Not well known but on early P-38s to avoid compressability all you had to do was retard the throttles and swerve a bit to keep things in control. The problems in the P-38 were blown out of proportion by rumor and the 8th AF brass.

wmaxt

 

[wmaxt]

WMAXT,

Did that article break down the training loss's per year?

I wouldnt be surprised to see a very high rate in 1941 and 1942, followed by a sharp decline beginning in 1943.

The low rate of the P51 might be due to it coming on line in 1943, after the AAF figured out how to train large numbers of students without getting them killed in the process.

You are correct, the highest number was for '43 @ 503 and the lowest was in '45 @ 186. From everything I've heard including Art Heiden is that special training was given to the P-51 pilots.

The site is the US Army Airforce Statistical Digest - WWII at Maxwel field. Another site on general training hours is the 8th AF Losses page.

wmaxt

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Cool good info there.

 

[delcyros]

The dive breaks may ensure safety from compressability problems but you had to deploy them before entering a dive otherwise you would likely enter a terminal dive. Under combat situations I would prefer the higher crit Mach of the P-47 N, just my mind (deploying the P-38 dive breaks also allows the enemy to disappear by opening up the range).

 

[wmaxt]

The dive breaks may ensure safety from compressability problems but you had to deploy them before entering a dive otherwise you would likely enter a terminal dive. Under combat situations I would prefer the higher crit Mach of the P-47 N, just my mind (deploying the P-38 dive breaks also allows the enemy to disappear by opening up the range).

High dive speed can be just as much a problem sometimes too. You know at 400mph your traveling 6.6miles a minute. at 30k your at 5.7 miles, ~50 seconds with a terminal speed differental of 70 mph you've gained/lost ~4,500ft. I used the max speed difference there so were talking about ~1/2 mile, A P-38 is still in effective gun range for a good shot.

It was recomended the dive flaps be deployed before the dive but it wasn't always done that way, with throtthe control and dive flape the P-38 gave much more control, not only of dive speed but in the angle of attack in the dive and all flight conditions.

Another thing to consider if your a reasonable distance behind when the plane your chasing flattenes out, you can cut the corner maintaing your speed and quickly reel him in.

Consider this, the P-38 reportedly had the fastest initiual dive acceleration which also skews the ultimate result of the dive. One on one with the P-47N the N had an advantage but as I understand it nothing else could get away from a P-38 in a dive and the maintenance of its top speed is what gives the N its advantage.

wmaxt

 

[Sal Monella]

The difference between 442 and 467 is 25mph. The P-47N could overtake the P-38L like you would overtake a stationary pedestrian in your car while travelling 25mph.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

What Logic!

 

[Sal Monella]

I can see how my example would impress a man who thinks a P-47N would have 2 seconds of firing time with M3's.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The difference between 442 and 467 is 25mph. The P-47N could overtake the P-38L like you would overtake a stationary pedestrian in your car while travelling 25mph.

Believe it or not in the air it doesn't seem like much when you're moving over 400 mph....

 

[Sal Monella]

I believe you as you can say from firsthand experience. When the distance between two aircraft is a kilometer, a 25mph differential would take just a minute and a half to close.

I would think that a 25mph advantage might allow you to pull away from your adversary and then execute an engagement on equal or superior footing. Conversely, a 25mph advantage might keep your adversary from doing the same.

 

[wmaxt]

I believe you as you can say from firsthand experience. When the distance between two aircraft is a kilometer, a 25mph differential would take just a minute and a half to close.

I would think that a 25mph advantage might allow you to pull away from your adversary and then execute an engagement on equal or superior footing. Conversely, a 25mph advantage might keep your adversary from doing the same.

Apparently you haven't been reading my posts, I already admitted to the typo. second I also commented on the 25mph as an advantage, in P-38/P-47 encounters. However as the largest advantage the P-47N has, it still doesn't make it dominant.
1. The speed difference is reduced as altitude is reduced
2. This difference is negated if the P-38 notes he is being persued (tail warning radar garrenties the N will be spotted before hes in firing position at ~1,000yrds) Turns around and fires at 1,000 yards or more before the N is in range.
3. It does let him escape, the N, but he's still in range of the P-38 for the first full minute or so, assuming he needs this because the P-38 has the advantage at this point.
4. He still doesn't out accelerate the P-38 until sometime after 400mph is passed
5. It does give him a little more energy to work with and some options like "Do I stay or do I leave?".

The P-38 climbs as well as the N so it maybe tough to dissengage and then rengage, and remember, as the altitude drops, as it always does, the P-38 gets better and the N losses some of its abilities.

Were back to pilot skills and the first advantage.

wmaxt

 

[evangilder]

Tail warning radar on the P-38?

 

[Sal Monella]

Whoa. Hold yer horses there Wmaxt. Put down the attitude and step away from the keyboard. What did I say that even remotely indicates that I didn't understabnd that you made a typo?

Look again. When I said, "I believe you as you can say from firsthand experience. When the distance between two aircraft is a kilometer, a 25mph differential would take just a minute and a half to close." I was referring to Flyboy's post.

He said that at high speeds the difference isn't that much. I was just putting the difference in time perspective so I gave the gap closure time at a 25mph differential.

Sorry I offended you. As always, your post makes some good points.

 

[wmaxt]

Whoa. Hold yer horses there Wmaxt. Put down the attitude and step away from the keyboard. What did I say that even remotely indicates that I didn't understabnd that you made a typo?
Sorry I offended you. As always, your post makes some good points.

If I was out of hand I'm sorry , I had noted your post where you subtracted 467 from 442 and went from there. Your points are valid too.

Your right it is there and properly used is an atvantage. If I were in a fight with a P-47N, I would take it verticle where the two fans give me a larger advantage than anything else, except down low where the 38 has more to work with.

wmaxt

 

[wmaxt]

Tail warning radar on the P-38?

It's not mentioned often, but all P-38s from the LO-5 model had a tail warning radar in the left boom that lit a warning light if someone was behind you to about 1,000 yards.

wmaxt

 

[lesofprimus]

I have heard of the TWR on the P-38L-5-LO's before, but there were not all that many in service IIRC... There were only about 2000 manufactured, and about 1/8th of these made it to the Pacific...

 

[syscom3]

Tail warning radar on the P-38?

It's not mentioned often, but all P-38s from the LO-5 model had a tail warning radar in the left boom that lit a warning light if someone was behind you to about 1,000 yards.

wmaxt

I can imagine a rookie wingman not holding formation and constantly drifting into the 'cone".... and pissing off his leader

 

[plan_D]

That happened a lot, it wasn't on purpose but they all did it.