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The RAF and Fleet Air Arm operated a lot of "cloth covered" aircraft, only the Swordfish was called the Stringbag.They called a string bag because was a cloth covered airplane.
I don't think Albacores would have held up well to attacks by Zeros lol
The IJN was surprised prior to the SBD strike on Hiryu as well, with only a few minutes warning prior to the SBD attack dive.Not to put too fine a point on things but while it's true the morning SBD attack wasn't harassed by Zeros, the late afternoon strike on Hiryu was. Zeros intercepted the Dauntlesses and even followed them down on their attack runs, to no avail obviously.
The IJN was surprised prior to the SBD strike on Hiryu as well, with only a few minutes warning prior to the SBD attack dive.
What we're discussing is not the SBD vs Albacore but the TBD vs Albacore. My point is that the Albacore can fly an SBD attack profile which will reduce the probability of interception prior to the strike and during the attack phase the Albacore can use a very steep dive to limit fighter interception and reduce flak accuracy.It's also the case that those same SBD squadrons had encountered zeros several times prior to Midway, both on scouting and bombing missions, and had mostly managed to survive the encounters. Even as emergency fighters though they were definitely not suited for that (and they lost several planes in that role).
I don't think Swordfish or Albacore equipped units would have survived getting bounced by Zeros or Oscars, or even Japanese floatplane fighters like Misubishi F1M 'Pete's.
What we're discussing is not the SBD vs Albacore but the TBD vs Albacore. My point is that the Albacore can fly an SBD attack profile which will reduce the probability of interception prior to the strike and during the attack phase the Albacore can use a very steep dive to limit fighter interception and reduce flak accuracy.
Maybe once, or twice, but eventually those slow, vulnerable planes will run into fighters. The comparison is similar to the notion of an SBD carrying a torpedo but not being able to land with one - it's not realistically feasible. The Albacore, Swordfish and TBD were all basically sitting ducks to a real fighter, or even a semi-fighter like an F1M. I think this is especially true for the hypermanueverable Japanese aircraft which could easily slow down to biplane speeds and tear them up. SBD not so much - it had the combination of factors which enabled it to survive such encounters, and even score air to air victories over Japanese bombers and recon aircraft. The Pacific Theater was not a 'permissive' environment in the sense of fighter opposition.
One thing occurred to me, from what I understand the TBD did not have self-sealing fuel tanks, which was a big problem. Is that true? Did the Swordfish or Albacore have them? The SBD did.
However, Swordfish being able to hit targets at night could have been very useful for example at Guadalcanal when the Japanese night attacks, bombardment sorties and supply runs were coming in. I think that was a real asset, even with the limited range. And I'll grant you, being able to use Albacore's as dive bombers makes them a bit more useful there as well. Ultimately they adapted the PBY for this same mission. I just can't really envision the Swordfish or the Albacore operating effectively during daylight hours anywhere near Japanese fighters, and given the fact that they (Japanese fighter aircraft) had two or three times the range, that put serious limits on the feasibility of their use, at least during the day.
I think in general, a carrier launched torpedo bomber was a very difficult design problem to solve in WW2, and the effective designs really didn't seem to emerge until near the end of the war (too late to play any significant role) and the beginning of the jet age when even promising designs like the B7N, Douglas BTD, Mrtin AM Mauler, or A1 Skyraider were rapidly becoming obsolescent (even if they did still find a role for the AD / A1 ). In the late 30's or even early 40's, it was barely possible to design such an aircraft and nobody fully rose to the challenge.
Not to skew my own thread, but at this point.....anyway....
I think there were a few mentions earlier on, that the Albacore was superior to the Avenger, but was it really that much better?
...apologies if I'm misquoting.
FWIW the Swordfish rear cockpit mounted overload tank came with a bag of corks so that the navigator could plug up any bullet holes.One thing occurred to me, from what I understand the TBD did not have self-sealing fuel tanks, which was a big problem. Is that true? Did the Swordfish or Albacore have them? The SBD did.
Maybe easier maintenance though the Taurus didn't have a good rep.
I really don't think it was...
Stat-------------------------TBF ------------------------------ Albacore
Level speed----------------278 mph------------------------- 169 mph
Cruise speed---------------215 mph------------------------- 140 mph
Range----------------------905 miles------------------------ 710 mph
Bomb load-----------------2,000 lbs------------------------- 2,000 lbs
Offensive Guns------------ 1 x .50"-------------------------- 1 x .30"
Defensive Guns------------1 x .50, 1 x .30------------------- 1 x .30"
Rockets---------------------Yes------------------------------- No (?)
Mines-----------------------Yes------------------------------- Yes
Radar-----------------------Yes------------------------------- Yes
Operate from CVL---------Yes------------------------------- Yes
Sunk IJN Capitol ships-----Yes------------------------------- No
ASW------------------------Yes------------------------------- (Not really)
The Albacore could dive-bomb, but had a significantly shorter range and half the speed of the Avenger. And the SBD was a much better dive bomber anyway. The Avenger wasn't a great air to air combat aircraft but it had a better survival record in the Pacific. They eventually fitted them with rockets for the 'attack' role. I think the only real advantage the Albacore had was being smaller. Maybe easier maintenance though the Taurus didn't have a good rep.
Even if you nudge the TBF speed down to 250 and nudge Albacore up to 160, (and if I wanted to spend the effort I think we could find many other data points to further complicate this) it still looks pretty bad in comparison, at least to me. Not only is that top speed and cruise speed very low, but I don't think it could go very fast even in a dive. It was obsolete before they even made it. As was the Swordfish and the TBD to be honest. Yes they were 1930's designs but so was the Spiftire, Me 109, Curtiss Hawk, SBD etc.
We can read about the many endearingly ingenious and clever ways they worked around the problems, and the courage of the flight crews who accomplished some successes in spite of the crippling flaws is quite admirable, but the truth is these were seriously flawed designs from the minute they were drafted in blueprint, and in many cases even before that, at the spec level. That was a big problem for those brave crews.
Also I suspect 'Stringbag' had a double meaning. It was versatile but the fact that it was basically made of canvas and wires stood out more and more as the war progressed.