The airplane that did the most to turn the tide of the war.

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How did the P-51 change the tide? Were the Germans winning when it was introduced?
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If I remember correctly, USAAF Gen Arnold put out a directive in June 1943 to find an existing fighter to modify, or build a new model to gain 'air supremacy' before the Allies attempt Operation Overlord, which was in the works for 1944. He specified a fight to go all the way to the heart of Germany. The Merlin (British designed engine) P-51 Mustang (also a British name) was the result.
 
I think everyone is well aware of all that but I still just don't think 1944 was a turning point, at least not in the sense of one side winning and then the other side winning. Germany was already doomed by the time the P-51 got into action in significant numbers.
 
Excellent table that shows the Allied bombers, however, I am left wondering why the B-25, B-26, A-26 and A-20 aren't listed.
Also notice that the 9th AF isn't represented, which relocated to England in late 1943.

B-25 and A-20 are listed as "Mitchel" and "Boston" respectively on the UK side, but maybe you mean USAAF?

I'm wondering why they include the Ventura but not the Hudson...?
 
From "The First and the Last" by Adolf Galland

"The theme of fighter protection was chewed over again and again. Goering clearly represented the point of view of the bombers and demanded close and rigid protection. The bomber, he said, was more important than record bag figures. I tried to point out that the Me109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the Spitfire, which, although a little slower, was much more manoeuvrable. He rejected my objection. We received many more harsh words. Finally, as his time ran short, he grew more amiable and asked what were the requirements for our squadrons. Moelders asked for a series of Me109's with more powerful engines. The request was granted. 'And you ?' Goering turned to me. I did not hesitate long. 'I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my group.' After blurting this out, I had rather a shock, for it was not really meant that way. Of course, fundamentally I preferred our Me109 to the Spitfire, but I was unbelievably vexed at the lack of understanding and the stubbornness with which the command gave us orders we could not execute - or only incompletely - as a result of many shortcomings for which we were not to blame. Such brazen-faced impudence made even Goering speechless. He stamped off, growling as he went."
 

Actually not quite. That is a myth caused by people taking his words out of context.

You really have to read the entire quote from Galland. It is from his book "The First And The Last", and he even says that he preferred the Bf 109 over the Spitfire, but said it out of frustration with Göring.

"Finally, as his time ran short, he grew more amiable and asked what were the requirements for our squadrons. Moelders asked for a series of Me109's with more powerful engines. The request was granted. 'And you ?' Goering turned to me. I did not hesitate long. 'I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my group.' After blurting this out, I had rather a shock, for it was not really meant that way. Of course, fundamentally I preferred our Me109 to the Spitfire, but I was unbelievably vexed at the lack of understanding and the stubbornness with which the command gave us orders we could not execute - or only incompletely - as a result of many shortcomings for which we were not to blame. Such brazen-faced impudence made even Goering speechless. He stamped off, growling as he went."
 
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The SBD is the only contender at that is as much due to being in the right place at the right time as any intrinsic qualities of plane itself.
The Yak-1 and IL-2 only come into play because they didn't suck as bad the I-16 and SU-2.

This has been mentioned a few times before, but I am not sure I agree.

The SBD may not have stood out in any obvious specific merits by which WW2 aircraft are typically rated - it didn't fly 400 mph like the Mosquito and it didn't carry 10,000 lbs of bombs like the Lancaster, didn't carry 8 x .50 cals like the P-47 or 4 x 20mm cannon like the Fw 190, and it didn't fly 2,550 miles like a Wellington. But for it's era, it was close enough to excellence in many different measurable criteria and others which are harder to define that I would say it was actually an excellent design with intrinsic qualities that made it a war winner.

The primary characteristics needed by a bomber are bomb accuracy, bomb load, and Survivability. Of secondary but still significant value were versatility, lethality, and viability.

Bomb accuracy means how likely are bombs to hit the target.
Bomb load is obvious, how many bombs and of what size can be carried to the target.
Survivability means the intrinsic qualities of the aircraft the contribute to it's survival as a machine and the survival of it's aircrew.

Secondary traits - versatility meaning how adaptable was it to various intended and unforseen missions besides the original design specs.; lethality meaning how much damage did it cause to enemy aircrew and ground targets aside from the effects of dropping ordinance, and viability meaning how often was the aircraft actually working and available for combat. Could it operate in difficult conditions, was it subject to chronic maintenance problems, was it hard or easy to repair.

A lot of people emphasize bomb load over all other traits in a bomber but I think it's actually the least important for most missions, beyond a certain critical point. For a naval bomber like a Dauntless there is a minimum weapon size needed to damage a large warship, i.e. by the time the Dauntless was in action roughly a 500 or 1,000 lb armor piercing bomb. But beyond that minimum, accuracy was far more important. Dropping 10,000 lbs of bombs in the ocean is basically useless at damaging a ship (unless you get a near miss). The mentality of a bomber as a 'bomb truck' is really what cost us the War in Vietnam. During WW II, bombers were notoriously inaccurate. It was not at all unusual for medium and high altitude level bombers to bomb the wrong city. Bombing at night made it even worse.

Tactical bombers required accuracy more than anything. Relatively small ordnance could knock out a tank or gun position, but inaccuracy could mean killing your own troops at worst, and having no effect at all at best. More than one battle in WW2 saw bombers causing massive casualties among their own troops.

In naval combat the Strategic and Tactical are combined. The target, a ship, is tactical, but the results (i.e. sinking Carriers, Transports, or Battleships) are potentially Strategic.

So a single day's action can be decisive. This means accuracy and bomb load are more important than all other factors for a given action. In this respect the Japanese D3A and B5N bombers were equivalent to the SBD. Both were lethal ship killers. For comparison here are all the single engined bombers I can think of from the early part of the war:

D3A1 - range 800 miles, speed 242 mph, guns 2 x 7.7mm and 1 x 1.7mm defensive, bomb load 1 x 551 lb and 2 x 132 lb bombs. Dive bomber = Yes
B5N2 - range 1,200 miles, speed 235 mph, guns 1 x 7.7mm defensive, bomb load 1 x 1760 lb torpedo
SBD3 - range 1,115 miles, speed 255 mph, guns 2 x 12.7mm (offensive), 1 x 7.62mm (later 2 x) defensive, bombs 2,250 (usually one 1,000 lb AP bomb). Dive bomber = Yes
JU-87B - range 311 miles, speed 242 mph, guns 2 x 7.92 (offensive), 1 x 7.92 (defensive), bombs 550 lbs bomb plus 4 x 110 lb bombs. Dive bomber = Yes
TBD Devastator - range 435 miles, speed 206 mph, guns 1 x 7.62 or 12.7mm mg (offensive), 1 x 7.62 mph, bombs 1,000 or 1 x torpedo
TBF Avenger - range 1,000 miles, speed 275 mph, guns 1 x 7.62 (offensive), 1 x 12.7 and 1 x 7.62 (defensive), 1 x 2,000 lb torpedo
Swordfish I - range 522 miles, speed 143 mph, guns 1 x 7.7mm (offensive), 1 x 7.7mm (defensive), 1 x 1,670 lb torpedo
Albacore - range 930 miles, speed 161 mph, guns 1 x 7.7mm (offensive), 1 or 2 x 7.7mm (defensive), 1 x 1,670 lb torpedo
Skua Mk II - range 760 miles, speed 225 mph, guns 4 x 7.7mm (offensive), 1 x 7.7mm (defensive), 1 x 500 lb AP bomb
SU-2 - range 685 miles, speed 300 mph, guns 4 x 7.62mm (offensive), 2 x 7.62mm (defensive), 1,320 lbs of bombs.
Fairy Battle - range 1,000 miles, speed 257 mph, guns 1 x 7.7mm (offensive), 1 x 7.7mm (defensive), 1,000 lbs of bombs

If you compare the SBD with it's contemporary single engined bombers, it's not the top in all categories (the SU 2 and TBF are faster, theoretically, and the B5N has longer range) but near the top in all of them. Plus armor, ruggedness / heavy construction, dive bombing ability and relatively heavy offensive armament make it stand out.

Naval war was a combination of attrition and Strategic warfare. Carrier duels could be decisive with Capital ships sinking in one day, meaning victory or defeat for the fleet. Here is where accuracy matters. For naval combat there were basically just two types of ship killers - dive bombers and torpedo bombers. Level bombers were essentially useless so that leaves out most of the planes above. Whereas maybe 1 out of 10 sorties from a D3A or SBD might get a hit, and perhaps 1 out of 6 from a B5N, with the torpedo hits also doing much more damage, for a level-bomber the rate of success was more like 1 out of 100. Additionally, in part because of problems with US torpedoes, in the early years of the war US Torpedo bombers were all but useless so they are pretty much out of the running too.

So this leaves the D3A, B5N, SBD, Swordfish and Ju 87 as the top (potential) naval bombers of the war.

Next factor is range - the Ju 87 never operated from carriers and had a limited range of 311 miles. That puts it out of the running even in any theoretical carrier duel. Swordfish were used and with success but their range was a very limited 522 miles. The Albacore is a bit better on range at 930 miles but still painfully slow and defenseless. In a carrier duel against the Japanese ala Midway or Coral Sea the Royal Navy would be in serious trouble on the basis of range alone, not even taking into consideration their vulnerability issues. For that matter torpedo bombers were statistically just more vulnerable than dive bombers. Dive bombers seemed to be harder to hit by flak, than the low and slow-flying torpedo carriers, and their high maneuverability and structural strength meant that they could maneuver well against fighters.

So we are left with the D3A, B5N and SBD as the best carrier bombers in the world in 1941 or 1942. All three have good range, good bomb load, but the SBD manages this with armor, self sealing fuel tanks, and a pair of .50 cal machine guns. The B5N in particular was very vulnerable to destruction as a big, slow torpedo carrier.

And carrier duels were not always decisive on the first encounter. It turned out that a steady pressure was also important to maintain. Even in a carrier duel, it might take several strikes before the outcome was decided, and here is where I think the SBD really stood out. The Japanese naval bombers, D3A and B5N in the beginning of the war, were excellent in terms of range and lethality, but bad in terms of survivability. In two days of action in the Solomons for example (24-25 Aug 1942) the IJN lost 70 aircraft, including almost all of their bombers, while damaging the CV Enterprise, whereas the US lost 20 (mostly fighters) and sunk the CVL Ryūjō. In a single strike on Aug 24 the Japanese lost 24 out of 37 aircraft. By comparison the US Navy lost 6 out of 31 Dauntlesses that attacked without fighter escort (due to the long range) when they sunk the Ryūjō. This emphasizes an important fact: The SBD had a remarkably low loss rate for an active bomber.

Carriers didn't always duel each other of course, they were also needed to attack land bases - taking islands was a major point of Pacific naval warfare after all. The SBD could be used in this way - (as could the TBF which was less helpful in Carrier vs. Carrier action) but the Japanese naval bombers were basically too fragile. In theory you could try to use something like a Swordish, Skua, or Fairey Battle this way but I would predict prohibitive casualties. This emphasizes both survivabiliy and versatility.

SBD's were also useful for scouting, ASW and sea rescue (the spotting part obviously not for picking up crews). They could be (and were) used for tactical CAS as well as Operational and Strategic Naval strikes. It was even useful in air to air combat. It was in a disadvantage against a Zero but was more than a match for a D3A or B5N, or say E-13 or F1M scout planes... with it's heavier guns, armor and self sealing tanks. Even against Zeros they sometimes scored kills (see Swede Vejtasa).

Finally in general serviceability and maintenance issues, the SBD excelled. It was highly available, even in the wretched conditions on Henderson Field. The best aircraft in the world is useless if it is a "hangar queen".


So TL : DR I would say the humble SBD was unusual. To fly 1,000 miles with a 1,000 lb bomb load and armed with heavy machine guns, armor and self sealing tanks - even if you could only manage 250 mph, and make it back again, was a rare trait especially for a naval / carrier bomber. As a true dive bomber it had accuracy an order of magnitude better than almost all other types of bombers except torpedo carriers, and it was far more survivable than the latter which meant it could be counted on to deliver more strikes. If you could manage 10 strikes with 10% accuracy that is better than 3 strikes with 15% accuracy.

So yeah, I think it stood out due to it's intrinsic qualities. I would argue that if for example the Royal Navy had large numbers of SBD's (I know I know - production difficulties would have made that very hard to achieve) the Bismarck would have been sunk much more quickly and maybe before it wacked the Hood!

I'll argue the points about the Yak-1 and Il2 some other time, this was long enough already.
 
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Reps:
'I should like an outfit of Spitfire for my group!' Sure looks like it was said.
 
Of course, fighter bombers and multi-engined bombers also competed with naval bombers. This became more and more true as the war progressed.

Carrier aircraft of course gave extra capabilities in that they could strike from a moving base, thus they were far less predictable and more useful in particular in the Pacific War.

Just for fun, here is a list of early land-based (unless otherwise stated torpedo capable) bombers of at least some proven lethality in naval combat:

G3M "Nell"* - range 2,734 miles
G4M2 "Betty"* - range 3,700 miles one way, ~ 1,500 miles strike
Ju-88 - range 1,429 miles, torpedo or dive bomber
He -111 - range 1,429 miles
He-115 - range 1,305 miles (float plane)
SM 79 - range 1,615 miles
CANT Z. 1007 - range 1,115 miles
CANT Z. 506 - range 1,200 miles (float plane)
A-20 Boston / Havoc - range 945 miles, torpedo or skip-bomber
B-25 Mitchell - range 1,174 miles - strafer and skip-bomber
B-26 Marauder - range 1,150 miles
Wellington - range 2,550 miles
Beaufort - range 1,600 miles

Of that list, the G3M, G4M, Ju 88, SM 79, Wellington, A-20 and B-25 had reputations as ship killers in terms of naval battles. The others sunk mostly merchant ships or had the potential in theory to sink ships but weren't used too much that way. Many of the above list were highly vulnerable to fighters and flak. The best in all categories combined were probably the Ju-88, G4M, A-20 Wellington and B-25 roughly in that order. But I don't think any of them had the impact on Naval war as the carrier based bombers.

Early on the Wildcat wasn't too useful in a ship killing role or as a fighter bomber. Some of the land based fighters like P-40s (notably at Milne Bay) and Hurricanes were dangerous as bombers but limited by range and training. The A-36 was a good dive bomber of course but I don't know that it was used much against ships, maybe a little in Italy? Have to look that up.

Later in the war fighters became much more important, especially with rockets and in use as partial dive bombers. The carrier fighters such as the Hellcat and Corsair probably mattered most in that role, followed by longer ranged land-based fighters like the P-38 and P-51.

But I would still say the SBD made more of an impact.

* see HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse
 
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....and then he went on to say, "......for it was not really meant to be that way.....I preferred our Me109...."

The issue about more maneuverable planes being better at escort, and hard to deal with as escorts, came up in Luftwaffe pilot interviews a lot in the Med as well specifically vis a vis P-40s. I'll transcribe one long quote in particular when I have a minute.
 
And what does that have to do with Galland's quote being taken out of context?

The actual context of Gallands quote is a bit more subtle than even you guys are acknowledging. He likes the 109 better overall sure, but the argument he's having with Goering has to do with the different combat roles each plane is good for or unsuited for. Bf 109s are great for hit and run attacks, for attacks in general - fast, good climb rate, well armed. But when escorting or engaging with bomber escorts - when you have to fight in other words and can't pick the ideal moment or ambush, a Spitfire is actually better.

Gallands main point is that he wants to choose his tactics (and do hit and run), Goering is insisting on a close escort because he is worried his bombers will take too many casualties in a looser escort. They are both right. What Galland really does need is another aircraft which can stay and fight on a more even basis. Something more suited for escort in general. But the Germans never developed anything really like that, maybe the Bf 110 was supposed to fit that role but of course it was a failure as a day fighter.

The Fw 190 was more capable of staying in a fight with Spitfires but it was doing hit and run attacks and probably wasn't a perfect escort either due to range and altitude capabilities.
 
I thought the context of Gallands quote was that to do what Goering wanted them to do the Spitfire was the better plane, they were using the 109 in the wrong way.

Thats pretty much it.

The quote still gets taken out of context, misquoted and falsly interpreted all the time, as we can clearly see in this thread...
 

Pretty much this...
 
I am afraid some of your data is incorrect.

SBD3 - range 1,115 miles, speed 255 mph, guns 2 x 12.7mm (offensive), 1 x 7.62mm (later 2 x) defensive, bombs 2,250 (usually one 1,000 lb AP bomb). Dive bomber = Yes

You seem to have quoted the specs from wikipedia for the SBD-5 which didn't start showing up until 1943?

there are 3 (2?) things of importance here:

1. they changed the engine from 1000hp for take-off to 1200hp for take-off.
2. they changed the take-off weight. SBD-5 per wiki was.
The manual (1942) for the SBD-3 lists a max take-off weight of
9031lbs with a 1000lb bomb/100 gals fuel in combat condition (self sealing tanks and armor)
Empty weights with armor and SS tanks was within 20lbs so I am not going to worry about it.

This makes rather a hash out of the 2200lb bomb load (achieved by carrying a 1600lb AP bomb and two 300lb class under wing stores?)

3, I am not sure when they added the underwing bomb racks.

Now as to regards to range, 100 gallons is certainly NOT going to get you 1000 miles even with no bomb let alone a 1000lb bomb. (plane burned around 37 gallons of fuel per hour at 50% power/ lean condition).

The Manual calls for 140 gallons with a 500lb bomb at a somewhat lower weight than the 1000lb/100 gallon load and for scouting up to 260 gallons could be carried with no bomb(all internal) so yes. the SBD could certainly fly 1100 miles if not further in scout mode. They may have flown the planes with bombs a bit overloaded (added 20-40 gallons of fuel ?) , I don't know.

Manual for the SBD-3 is available from this thread. upload pilots handbook for sbd-3 dauntless


Information on some of the others may also be hard to come by.
 
Pretty much this...

Are you saying I'm taking it out of context, misquoting or falsely interpreting it? For the record I was not agreeing with Navalwarriors interpretation that Galland was suggesting the Spitfire was better in general. I am asserting that he believed (like many other Luftwaffe pilots and experten) that the Bf 109 was not particularly well-suited for escort / bomber defense duties or to a lesser extent for sustained dogfighting with enemy bomber escorts.

It was very good at hit and run and that is what they liked to do with it, but that imposed certain Tactical and Operational limitations.

Unlike Galland I do think the Spitfire very generally speaking was a better fighter, depending on the subtypes being compared, than the Bf 109. But that is my opinion I don't claim any German pilot felt that way.
 

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