The airplane that did the most to turn the tide of the war.

[swampyankee]

Korea and Vietnam were limited wars for limited aims. Running them like WWII would have led to a much larger Soviet victory, as the US would have been seen as violently over-reacting.

A couple of points:
1. Please explain how WW1 was NOT a fight to the death? Clearly, it wasn't from the US perspective but the Europiean powers would likely disagree with that assessment.
2. The Japanese did not decide to attack by surprise. It was a screw-up due to decoding issues.

If I remember my history (and not of the highly distorted version taught in high school) correctly, your second item is technically correct, but the IJN plan was there to be such a short warning time that the Pearl Harbor attack was functionally a surprise attack.

To item one, considering the Brest-Litovsk Treaty, it's certainly hard to argue it wasn't. The peace terms offered to the Entente on the western front weren't much better.

The long series of wars against Native Americans were functionally genocidal, as they were meant to remove the indigenous peoples from their homelands and destroy both their independence and culture

 

[fubar57]

Did either the Normans or Anglo-Saxon use............
The airplane that did the most to turn the tide of the war

 

[The Basket]

Merlin was King Arthur's magician

Merlin powered the Spitfire.

William was from Normandy.

Invasion in 1944 was Normandy.

Its all linked. Its like poetry, it rhymes.

 

[Kevin J]

Eh? The real, if there was a real King Arthur, fought the Anglo Saxons.
Why did Bretons leave to form Brittany?
I will use England and Anglo Saxon as a catch all phrase to make it easier.

Whether you call it an invasion or not, the Anglo Saxons certainly got the language and culture squared away. So you can call it a settlement or invasion but same dog.

The results are exactly the same which is the end of Ramono-Celtic culture in England been replaced with Germanic culture.

The intermarriage of Celts and Germaics could be the use of shorthand for rape and pillage so hardly useful. Kill all the men leaving the women and children.

Whether the English Celts fled or died or survived as Germanic offspring is neither here nor there. A genetically Celtic child would be brought up speaking English and as a Germanic child. And so would see themselves as Germanic. They wouldn't see themselves as Celtic.

Germanics won and the old English language has little basis from Latin or Celtic language. Which it would if Romano Celts and Germanics were equal.

The stories you read are the result of the victors, the Normans, rewriting the country's history.

 

[pbehn]

There was no Anglo-Saxon invasion. The Angles were refugees having been kicked out of what became Denmark. The Saxons were traders in Roman times who settled on the Saxon shore running between Norfolk on the East to Sussex on the South Coast. They intermarried with the Romano-Britons, eventually taking over, many Romano-Britons left settling in north-west France in what is known today as Brittany (Bretagne) as opposed to Grand Brittannia (Great Britain). The Vikings pillaged and settled the East Coast of England. The Normans (Norse men intermarried with French) along with the Bretons returned in 1066. The harrowing of the north resulted in the deaths of 200,000. England's population at the time was 1 million. What most people believe is the Norman fantasy concocted in the 12/13th centuries, you know, king Arthur, Camelot, the Anglo-Saxon invasion that never happened.

The harrying of the north was a result of its resistance to Norman rule and allegiance of many in York and Yorkshire to Denmark from wiki 1069 − Sweyn II of Denmark lands with an army, in much the same way as Harald Hardrada. He took control of York after defeating the Norman garrison and inciting a local uprising. King William eventually defeated his forces and devastated the region in the Harrying of the North.

 

[Kevin J]

I believe the Cornish had a Merlin to protect them.

 

[swampyankee]

Trying to get back on the rails...

An individual aircraft type could not turn the tide of war. Probably the one that, arguably, came closest in ETO was the P-51D, but by the time it arrived Germany was already past a point where it could have won.

 

[Navalwarrior]

At least somebody was awake that morning! Let's hear it for junior tin can skippers; not old enough to succumb to caution.

Resp:
Yes, the Navy acted. If my memory serves me, the attack by the US destroyer on the midget sub was @ 0600 Sunday 07 Dec 1941. This was how many hours before the 1st strike by Japanese forces? I believe that the US Army manned radar station picked up a 'blip' of incoming aircraft @ 0701 (?). So it seems we have at least an hour plus time frame to 'take some kind of action!' So this indicates more than the 35 min (discussed earlier in another post concerning the Pearl Harbor attack) or so to start the ball rolling. The US was truly 'sleeping' that morning. Where was the central watch center to gather and assess various bits of information/Intel?

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Where was the central watch center to gather and assess various bits of information/Intel?

Empty, except for a bored young fighter pilot who was not fully qualified to stand that watch, but was covering for somebody else. He was at least well enough informed to know about the incoming B17 flight, and when the radar guys reported their returns, he figured that was what they had seen. Radar was new and mysterious, and procedures not very sophisticated. If this had been a BoB type sophisticated radar early warning system he could have been fed enough detailed information to smell a rat. Numbers of targets, direction of approach, and closing velocity would have been inconsistent with a few B17s from California. The mindset just wasn't there to be suspicious. Besides, when have the peacetime Army and Navy ever worked together on intelligence and force protection matters?
Kudos to LCDR Outerbridge and the crew of USS Ward, who drew the first blood of the Pacific war. BTW, three years to the day after Pearl Harbor, Ward was hit by a kamikaze, burned out, and abandoned, but the tough old gal refused to sink. CDR Outerbridge, now in command of another ship, was assigned the task of scuttling her by gunfire.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[pbehn]

Empty, except for a bored young fighter pilot who was not fully qualified to stand that watch, but was covering for somebody else. He was at least well enough informed to know about the incoming B17 flight, and when the radar guys reported their returns, he figured that was what they had seen. Radar was new and mysterious, and procedures not very sophisticated. If this had been a BoB type sophisticated radar early warning system he could have been fed enough detailed information to smell a rat. Numbers of targets, direction of approach, and closing velocity would have been inconsistent with a few B17s from California. The mindset just wasn't there to be suspicious. Besides, when have the peacetime Army and Navy ever worked together on intelligence and force protection matters?
Kudos to LCDR Outerbridge and the crew of USS Ward, who drew the first blood of the Pacific war. BTW, three years to the day after Pearl Harbor, Ward was hit by a kamikaze, burned out, and abandoned, but the tough old gal refused to sink. CDR Outerbridge, now in command of another ship, was assigned the task of scuttling her by gunfire.
Cheers,
Wes

If the French had mounted an attack on UK in 1939 without warning it would probably have had a similar unprepared or disbelieving response.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Get this thread back on topic, or another formerly good conversation will be closed.

Take your Anglo-Saxon, are the Brits Germanic or not (And yes they are, there is a reason English is a Germanic language) conversation to it's own thread in another section. Stop ruining it for the other members.

This applies to all involved....

 

[pbehn]

I believe the Cornish had a Merlin to protect them.

That was only a wizard, not a little bird lol

 

[michael rauls]

This may be a little off topic but I'd like to talk about the plane that did the most to turm the tide of the war. Specifically a slightly different angle on the topic. Instead of the type of plane how about the individual plane.
This of course would be largely dependant on the pilot as much as if not more so than the aircraft but still an interesting exercise......at least to me.
My pick( probably suprising no one) is Wade McCluskys SBD that found the Japanese carriers at Midway. Would certainly love to hear others thoughts on this however as I can think of a few other obvious contenders.

 

[Snautzer01]

Resp:
Correct! But if it had been delivered, rather than delayed . . . the Japanese could have said we notified you. As an aside, the US Navy actually fired the 1st shot when they fired (and hit) a midget Japanese sub.

This was League of Nations politics, sailing towards a naval base with mini subs in place, air planes in the air, is an act of war. No paper is needed to make that statement. Japan wanted war for all sorts of reasons and that is what they got. Bullied the wrong guys in hind sight but there you go.

 

[pinsog]

This may be a little off topic but I'd like to talk about the plane that did the most to turm the tide of the war. Specifically a slightly different angle on the topic. Instead of the type of plane how about the individual plane.
This of course would be largely dependant on the pilot as much as if not more so than the aircraft but still an interesting exercise......at least to me.
My pick( probably suprising no one) is Wade McCluskys SBD that found the Japanese carriers at Midway. Would certainly love to hear others thoughts on this however as I can think of a few other obvious contenders.

Not sure that would apply against Germany due to the amount of planes on all sides. Japan might be different due to the much smaller, early war, number of planes. McClusky is a pretty good choice. I'll toss in:
1. Richard Best at Midway scoring the only hit on Akagi, single handedly sinking a major fleet carrier
2. Shooting down Yamamoto

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Not sure that would apply against Germany due to the amount of planes on all sides. Japan might be different due to the much smaller, early war, number of planes. McClusky is a pretty good choice. I'll toss in:
1. Richard Best at Midway scoring the only hit on Akagi, single handedly sinking a major fleet carrier
2. Shooting down Yamamoto

I still like NevadaK's rationale for the A6M. It was the Zero's role as an enabler that triggered chains of events that turned out to be earth shaking.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[pinsog]

I still like NevadaK's rationale for the A6M. It was the Zero's role as an enabler that triggered chains of events that turned out to be earth shaking.
Cheers,
Wes

Agree with you. His assessment was spot on.

 

[michael rauls]

I still like NevadaK's rationale for the A6M. It was the Zero's role as an enabler that triggered chains of events that turned out to be earth shaking.
Cheers,
Wes

If the A6Ms capabilities were so much better than other existing Japanese designs that without them the attack on Pearl Harbor would not have been contemplated then a very good case could indeed be made for it doing the most to turn the tide of the war by making the attack on the US posible which in turn turned the tide.
The question is, would Pearl Harbor have been carried out without the Zeros and its capabilities...........and the answer to that is way above my paygrade as they say.
Certainly an interesting and insightful angle and certainly plausible.

 

[The Basket]

Usually there is always an alternative. So what other Japanese IJN fighter would have been there instead of the Zero?
The Spitfire cancelled a lot of fighter developments in the UK so its not a case as there was no alternative but one wasn't needed. So it didn't appear.
No Bf 109 then He 112 it is or Messerschmitt may have come back with a better design in 1936 which would become the 109. There is usually a backup somewhere which can do 80% of what say a P-51 can do. Whether that's the Corsair or the P-40Q. Dunno. Because history was stopped for the P-40Q which could have been different had the Mustang not been around.

The Zero was certainly not a unique aircraft and I would assume that a Nakajima aircraft like a naval Hayabusa or even the A5M on supercharge would still have done what the Zero could have. Perhaps or perhaps not.

A naval Hayabusa would not be as good perhaps but it will be close enough. I sincerely think the IJN or IJA would have gone to war regardless. Maybe no Pearl or Midway but fighting spirit will overcome any military disadvantage.

Any nation that does Banzai charges into machine guns with Samurai swords is not going to be doubting its capability or waiting for Mitsubishi to make the Zero. If I got a short range fighter then I have to make the most of it.

 

[Schweik]

Probably a fully functional Ki-61 with a later series engine