Of course, but the only difference a P-51B had was that it could carry them further than others could, the difference between a Gladiator and a Spitfire was only that it could take a few more of the same guns a bit higher and faster. It is all true, but a strange argument because that ability was all that mattered.
The airplane that did the most to turn the tide of the war.
- Thread starter michael rauls
- Start date
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Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
I think the ability to drop lots of big bombs played a role too.
You can't destroy enemy infrastructure (factories, bridges, dams, etc) with .50 cals and 20mm cannon.
You can't destroy enemy infrastructure (factories, bridges, dams, etc) with .50 cals and 20mm cannon.
We were discussing its ability in ASW and closing the Atlantic gap.
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
While strafing may drive a surfaced boat under, it's the depth charges that finish the job.
Shortround6
Major General
1943 saw the introduction of;
Rockets
Better radar
the MK 24 torpedo (Fido)
more wide spread use of Torpex
And that is just for aircraft. Ships got improved radar, Torpex depth charges, more widespread use of Hedgehog
There was a bunch of "stuff" that was introduced in 1942 but it took a while to get into widespread use. Often first kill trailed first installed unit/s by a number of months.
Squid showed up in mid-late 1943 but didn't get a kill until mid 1944. Went to record 17 kills for 50 attacks making it by far the most effective ship borne anti-sub weapon.
But like a lot of weapons, it took a while to figure out how to use it in service.
B-24 certainly helped. It was not solely responsible for solving the mid-Atlantic problem.
Rockets
Better radar
the MK 24 torpedo (Fido)
more wide spread use of Torpex
And that is just for aircraft. Ships got improved radar, Torpex depth charges, more widespread use of Hedgehog
There was a bunch of "stuff" that was introduced in 1942 but it took a while to get into widespread use. Often first kill trailed first installed unit/s by a number of months.
Squid showed up in mid-late 1943 but didn't get a kill until mid 1944. Went to record 17 kills for 50 attacks making it by far the most effective ship borne anti-sub weapon.
But like a lot of weapons, it took a while to figure out how to use it in service.
B-24 certainly helped. It was not solely responsible for solving the mid-Atlantic problem.
It was not so much a question of it taking time to learn how to use Squid as to the number of ships equipped with it. Operationally it was a 1944/45 weapon.
Squid was trialled in the old destroyer Ambuscade from May 1943.
The first production Squids went into the Castle class corvettes (single triple barrelled mortar) starting with Hadleigh Castle that only completed on 18th Sept 1943. She was the only one to join an escort group in 1943. Another 4 of the class completed in Nov/Dec 1943 but were still working up at the end of the year. 39 (incl 12 RCN & 1 Norwegian) of these ships completed through to Feb 1945.
The first two Loch class frigates (with a double squid) didn't complete until mid-April 1944. They completed their trials and work ups at Tobermory just in time to join the 2nd Escort Group ahead of D-Day in the western part of the English Channel / Bay of Biscay. Loch Killin made the first Squid kill on 31 July 1944. Only 26 were completed (including 3 RCN manned and 3 SAN manned) before the war ended in Aug 1945 plus another pair late 1945/early 1946.
What made Squid so effective was that it was linked to a new type of ASDIC, Type 147, which could determine submarine depth more accurately. Double Squid was more effective than single Squid as the bombs in each mortar could be set to different depths, hopefully with the U-boat sandwiched between them.
Squid was trialled in the old destroyer Ambuscade from May 1943.
The first production Squids went into the Castle class corvettes (single triple barrelled mortar) starting with Hadleigh Castle that only completed on 18th Sept 1943. She was the only one to join an escort group in 1943. Another 4 of the class completed in Nov/Dec 1943 but were still working up at the end of the year. 39 (incl 12 RCN & 1 Norwegian) of these ships completed through to Feb 1945.
The first two Loch class frigates (with a double squid) didn't complete until mid-April 1944. They completed their trials and work ups at Tobermory just in time to join the 2nd Escort Group ahead of D-Day in the western part of the English Channel / Bay of Biscay. Loch Killin made the first Squid kill on 31 July 1944. Only 26 were completed (including 3 RCN manned and 3 SAN manned) before the war ended in Aug 1945 plus another pair late 1945/early 1946.
What made Squid so effective was that it was linked to a new type of ASDIC, Type 147, which could determine submarine depth more accurately. Double Squid was more effective than single Squid as the bombs in each mortar could be set to different depths, hopefully with the U-boat sandwiched between them.
Shortround6
Major General
Thank you for filling out that History.
The Hedgehog showed up in 1942, but similarly it didn't score a kill until Nov 1942 and didn't really become a problem for the U-boats until sometime in 1943.
There were a number of things that all came together in 1943 to really turn the tide of the U-boat war. Picking one of them, like the B-24 doesn't seem right.
Just checked U-boat.net and they list in first 1/2 of 1943 12 kill by B-24s out of 117 U-boats lost and 2 of them were not in the Mid Atlantic.
Ten boats lost is ten boats lost but 8.5% losses doesn't seem to be huge game changer?
Losses does not count subs forced to submerge or attacks broken of however so effects of the long range B-24s could be more than just kills.
The Hedgehog showed up in 1942, but similarly it didn't score a kill until Nov 1942 and didn't really become a problem for the U-boats until sometime in 1943.
There were a number of things that all came together in 1943 to really turn the tide of the U-boat war. Picking one of them, like the B-24 doesn't seem right.
Just checked U-boat.net and they list in first 1/2 of 1943 12 kill by B-24s out of 117 U-boats lost and 2 of them were not in the Mid Atlantic.
Ten boats lost is ten boats lost but 8.5% losses doesn't seem to be huge game changer?
Losses does not count subs forced to submerge or attacks broken of however so effects of the long range B-24s could be more than just kills.
drgondog
Major
If you want one aircraft type that dramatically changed the course of the war - there is only one that seems plausible.
B-29 on two missions - killed 500K and saved 5-10 Million that would have occurred with Invasion of Japan. That sounds like a 'major change'.
B-29 on two missions - killed 500K and saved 5-10 Million that would have occurred with Invasion of Japan. That sounds like a 'major change'.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Greg Boeser
2nd Lieutenant
Just the A-bombs.
No other plane could deliver them.
No other plane could deliver them.
The initial death toll between the two atomic bombs is less than 200,000. The long term death tolls are significantly higher, but didn't contribute to the decision to surrender.
Do not underestimate the effect that the fire bombing campaign had on Japan. The Tokyo raid death toll was higher than either initial death toll from the atomic bombs. In less than 12 months the fire bombing campaign had burned out the cores of almost every Japanese city and the USAAF was running out of targets. Once the US was able to operate out of the Marianas and had switched to fire bombing and harbor mining the B-29 is probably the most important single weapons system that hastened the end of the war. Had the atomic bombs not been dropped and the allies had invaded Japan, the B-29 would have had a major role in neutralizing Japanese defenses by delivering the US version of the Tall Boy bomb.
This subject came up in another thread, where I posted a USAAF report dated end June 1945 that detailed the result of tests at Eglin with a B-29 dropping Tallboy. Those tests had only begun in Feb 1945. The recommendation of that report was that a single Bomb Group should be equipped with B-29s to drop those weapons. And those aircraft needed extensive modifications to achieve that and the crews needed special training. Nothing had happened by VJ Day towards achieving that.
So the USAAF would not have been dropping Tallboys until some time in 1946. Certainly not in time for Olympic scheduled for 1 Nov 1945 and probably not even in time for Coronet scheduled for 1 March 1946.
The people that would have been dropping Tallboys in time for Olympic were the RAF. The first units of Tiger Force to deploy were to be 9 & 617 squadrons forming the Special Missions Wing equipped with Lancasters. They were scheduled to arrive on Okinawa from late Sept 1945.
drgondog
Major
I meant 200K short term, 500K long term. That said 500K is hyperbole when cosidering what the Japanese were thinking. The firebombing by LeMay killed more than the nuclear weapons 8-6 and 8-9. The Japaenese leaders had a lot to think about but most of all - they didn't know that another wouldn't be avaiable until October.
Thank you, EwenS.
I've attached this AAF report on the Tallboy testing. Page 3 item 6a indicates that the AAF wanted Tallboy capable B-29's in service immediately in summer 1945. Somewhere I had a copy of the T-10 (American Tallboy) production order and they were expected to be produced quite rapidly. My understanding is that the experience at Okinawa stressed the need to have this capacity in anticipation of similar challenges with Japanese defenses.
I was just discussing the OP about airplanes and "which airplane"
Britain had ordered Tallboy casings from the US from spring / summer 1944 which were then filled in Britain for dropping by 9 & 617 squadrons. The only difference was in the construction method used by each nation.
The first targets were AIUI intended to be the rail tunnels between Kyushu and Honshu.
Shortround6
Major General
There was post about the B-24 solving the mid-Atlantic gap and thus the battle of the Atlantic.
I don't know when those stories started but we do know a lot more about the code breaking and Huff-Duff and some of the side stuff now than we did in the 50s and 60s when the old books were written.
It was a lot more complicated than a few squadrons of B-24s were finally used for air cover and the problem was "solved" and if (insert stupid general/air marshal here) had only used a few squadrons of B-24s earlier the problem would have solved earlier.
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,667
- May 13, 2018
I still say, for the US it was the PT-17. There would be no pilots for the AT-6, B-24, B-29 or B-36 otherwise. There were other PTs but not enough; PT-25, PT-19 & a few more, but the PT-17=N2S made the most pilots and therefore was the most important US airplane. The PT-17 contributed to the navigator and bombardier pools.
