The almost best fighters that never flew in WWII
- Thread starter CobberKane
- Start date
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MacArther
Staff Sergeant
I did wonder about that "open" space on the P-63....maybe flight testing showed bad characteristics when those items were added into the wing?
I gather you mean the space I stated as 'free'? It was mostly vacant, and no 'items' were added there, apart from two 12,5 gal tanks for water-methanol mixture (ADI) for engine. The P-63s with ADI were not that frequent during the ww2, though; I'd really like to know the 'amount' of the wartime P-63As with the ADI equipment vs. those without that.
Mike Williams
Senior Airman
- 572
- Oct 19, 2006
Hi Dave:
I may have missed something in the flow of the thread, however, please note the following - which might hopefully clarify things a bit:
P-51B with V-1650-3 - 450 mph at 28,000 ft. (67" Hg.)
P-51B with V-1650-7 - 442 mph at 24,500 ft. (67" Hg.)
Those P-51Bs equipped with a V-1650-3 had a higher FTH than those P-51Bs equipped with the V-1650-7 and, everything else being equal, were thus faster.
That said, Wright Field tests of P-51B-5 43-6883 equipped with V-1650-3 obtained 442 mph at 29,400 (67" Hg.) as you noted, however, of interest is that P-51B 43-12093 obtained 441 mph at 29,800 ft. while only operating at 60.5 in. Hg.. As CORSNING noted, A. .A.E.E. tests of Mustang III FX.953 with V-1650-3 obtained 450 mph at 28,000 ft. It's probably not a coincidence that the Mustang III data card and the test results of FX.953 are in agreement. Please note also the Navy tests of P-51B No. 37050 equipped with V-1650-3, which obtained 450 mph at 29,000 ft. operating at 67" Hg. which is in close agreement with the A. A.E.E. trials.
Also for purposes of placing these test results in context the following taken from the report on FX.953 is of interest:
5.2 The following table gives comparison of the performance results with those obtained on a Mustang III by North American Inc. (Report No.NA.5798). The combat climbs and all-out level speeds were made by the firm with the boost control adjusted to give a maximum of 61" of mercury. For comparison, the corresponding results determined at this Establishment are quoted for this value of the manifold pressure.
The actual take-off weights on test were 9200 lb. (A. A.E.E.) and 8460 lb. (NA) but the N.A. results below have been corrected to 9200 lb.
There is fairly good agreement between level speed results, the N.A. Report being 2 to 4% optimistic compared with the present results. On the climb the maximum difference is 8% although on the whole the agreement is quite reasonable.
Last edited:
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
The Swedish J21/J21R?
wuzak
Captain
Without changing the supercharger the higher boost would be achieved at a lower altitude. IIRC 67inHg is equivalent to +18psi. Higher boost required higher grades of fuel and/or ADI. Though higher boost pressures would be achieved at lower altitudes, making the aircraft faster at those altitudes, the boost pressures at the previous FTH would be much teh same, as would speed.
CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
Excellent post Mike. Thank you, Jeff.
parsifal
Colonel
Three aircraft, two of which were Australian, and only one of the thjreee that entered series production during the war
1) Commonwealth Aircraft CA-13 Boomerang
CA - 13 Boomerang Actual Data
Quantity (all marks) 250
Wingspan 36ft
Length 25ft 6in
Engine 1,200hp Pratt Whitney Radial
Weight Empty 5,373lb
Weight Loaded (combat) 7,699lb
Max Speed 304mph TAS
Rate of Climb 2,150fpm at 5k
Climb to Height (10k)
Armament 2x 20mm + 4x .303 Guns
The thing about the Boomerang is that, except for British intransigence and obstinance concerning engine manufature, the type could have been in production from July 1940, instead of September 1942 (perhaps with an all MG armament) . Australia would hjave been immeasurably better off with several hundred of this type instead of the few dozozen buffaloes that were actually provided for local defence (and these invariably ended up in malaya anyway).
hen Australia suddenly found itself in the front line, in December 1941, it had no modern fighters save a few Buffaloes supplied to the RAF in Singapore. To try to produce a stop-gap quickly the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation at Fishermen's Bend, Melbourne, decided to design and build their own. But the design team, under Wing Commander Laurence J. Wackett, was severely restricted. The new fighter had to be based on the familiar North American trainer series, which since 1938 had served as the basis for the excellent Wirraway general-purpose combat machine and trainer, of which 755 were made by CAC by 1946. Moreover the only powerful engine available was the 1,200hp Twin Wasp, judged by 1942 to be much too low-powered for first-line fighters elsewhere. Despite these restrictions the resulting machine was tough, outstandingly manoeuvrable and by no means outclassed by the Japanese opposition. Wackett's team worked day and night to design the CA - 12 in a matter of weeks and build and fly the prototype in a further 14 weeks. Testing and production went ahead together and, as there were no real snags, with most of the first 105 CA -12s soon flying with 2 OTU Mildura. There followed 95 CA- 13s 1 CA-14 with a turbo charger and a squared off fin. Finally 49 CA -19s with minor changes to the CA-13s were built. Boomerangs did not carry bombs but often marked targets for "heavies" and undertook close support with their guns.
2) CAC-15 kangaroo
CA-15 Kangaroo Actual Data
Quantity (all marks) 1
Wingspan 36ft
Length 36ft 21/2in
Engine 2,035hp Griffon 61 V-12
Weight Empty 7,540lb
Weight Loaded (combat) 10,764lb
Max Speed 447mph TAS
Rate of Climb 4,990fpm at 5k
Climb to Height (10k)
Armament 6x .50in Guns
Only 1 example of the CA-15 was ever built before the jet age caught up with the CAC builders. It would have been an outstanding fighter, infact the fastest piston engined fighter of all time with a top speed of 502.2mph in a speed test over Melbourne. She was designed as a long range fighter for the RAAF and first flew in march of 1946. Originally designed with the Pratt and Whitney R-2800 radial engine in mind, the design had to be changed in 1944 when the R-2800 was no longer being made available to the RAAF. Instead the Griffin 61 V12 engine (which was later found to perfectly suite this airframe) was chosen as a replacement untill the new Griffon 120 V-12 was made available to the RAAF. This change plus offical disinterest delayed the production of the CA-15 which could have entered service in 1944/45. The CA-15 Kangaroo was an outstanding aircraft and proved that australian designers could design aircraft to world standards. It was primarily still borne because the P-51D was nmade available very cheaply, with some local content
3) Hawker Sea Fury FB11
The Sea Fury could have been in service from 1944, but was delayed for a number of reasons. Its delay was effectively an "own goal" for the RN. It would have been a fomridable wartime caqrrier borne fighter IMO. A number of MiG shoot downs were achieved with the type during Korea, and it was an exceptional fighter bomber. Post war it has been the mount of choicee in many air races because of its exceptionally high speed and good manouverability
The Sea Fury FB.11 was armed with the same four 20mm cannon as the Mk.X. It could carry two 500lb or 1,000lb bombs, twelve 3in rockets or four 180lb Triplex rockets under the wings, as well as two 45 or 90 gallon fuel drop tanks. Despite the increase in loaded weight performance was similar to that of the basic fighter versiuon of the Mk.X.
The FB.11 entered service with No.802 Squadron in May 1948, and eventually served with Nos.801, 802, 803, 804, 805 (RAN), 807 and 808 (RAN) Squadrons. There was also extensive foreifn usage of the type, and the type was able to operate from the decks of smaller carriers without difficulty. It saw service throughout the Korean War, but was withdrawn soon after the end of the war.
Engine: Bristol Centaurus XVIII
Power: 2,550hp
Crew: 1
Wing span: 38ft 4 ¾ in
Length: 37ft including tail hook, 34ft 8in without
Height: 15ft 10 ½ in
Empty Weight: 9,240lb
Loaded Weight: 12,500lb
Maximum Weight: 14,650lb
Max Speed: 460mph
Time to 30,000ft: 10.8 minutes
Service Ceiling: 35,800ft
Range: 700 miles with internal fuel, 1,040 miles with underwing drop tanks
Armament: Four 20mm Hispano Mk 5 cannon
Bomb-load: Two 500lb or 1,000lb bombs, twelve 3 inch rockets or four 180lb Triplex rockets (it could also pggy back sonabouys for the Firefly AS6 ASW aircraft)
1) Commonwealth Aircraft CA-13 Boomerang
CA - 13 Boomerang Actual Data
Quantity (all marks) 250
Wingspan 36ft
Length 25ft 6in
Engine 1,200hp Pratt Whitney Radial
Weight Empty 5,373lb
Weight Loaded (combat) 7,699lb
Max Speed 304mph TAS
Rate of Climb 2,150fpm at 5k
Climb to Height (10k)
Armament 2x 20mm + 4x .303 Guns
The thing about the Boomerang is that, except for British intransigence and obstinance concerning engine manufature, the type could have been in production from July 1940, instead of September 1942 (perhaps with an all MG armament) . Australia would hjave been immeasurably better off with several hundred of this type instead of the few dozozen buffaloes that were actually provided for local defence (and these invariably ended up in malaya anyway).
hen Australia suddenly found itself in the front line, in December 1941, it had no modern fighters save a few Buffaloes supplied to the RAF in Singapore. To try to produce a stop-gap quickly the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation at Fishermen's Bend, Melbourne, decided to design and build their own. But the design team, under Wing Commander Laurence J. Wackett, was severely restricted. The new fighter had to be based on the familiar North American trainer series, which since 1938 had served as the basis for the excellent Wirraway general-purpose combat machine and trainer, of which 755 were made by CAC by 1946. Moreover the only powerful engine available was the 1,200hp Twin Wasp, judged by 1942 to be much too low-powered for first-line fighters elsewhere. Despite these restrictions the resulting machine was tough, outstandingly manoeuvrable and by no means outclassed by the Japanese opposition. Wackett's team worked day and night to design the CA - 12 in a matter of weeks and build and fly the prototype in a further 14 weeks. Testing and production went ahead together and, as there were no real snags, with most of the first 105 CA -12s soon flying with 2 OTU Mildura. There followed 95 CA- 13s 1 CA-14 with a turbo charger and a squared off fin. Finally 49 CA -19s with minor changes to the CA-13s were built. Boomerangs did not carry bombs but often marked targets for "heavies" and undertook close support with their guns.
2) CAC-15 kangaroo
CA-15 Kangaroo Actual Data
Quantity (all marks) 1
Wingspan 36ft
Length 36ft 21/2in
Engine 2,035hp Griffon 61 V-12
Weight Empty 7,540lb
Weight Loaded (combat) 10,764lb
Max Speed 447mph TAS
Rate of Climb 4,990fpm at 5k
Climb to Height (10k)
Armament 6x .50in Guns
Only 1 example of the CA-15 was ever built before the jet age caught up with the CAC builders. It would have been an outstanding fighter, infact the fastest piston engined fighter of all time with a top speed of 502.2mph in a speed test over Melbourne. She was designed as a long range fighter for the RAAF and first flew in march of 1946. Originally designed with the Pratt and Whitney R-2800 radial engine in mind, the design had to be changed in 1944 when the R-2800 was no longer being made available to the RAAF. Instead the Griffin 61 V12 engine (which was later found to perfectly suite this airframe) was chosen as a replacement untill the new Griffon 120 V-12 was made available to the RAAF. This change plus offical disinterest delayed the production of the CA-15 which could have entered service in 1944/45. The CA-15 Kangaroo was an outstanding aircraft and proved that australian designers could design aircraft to world standards. It was primarily still borne because the P-51D was nmade available very cheaply, with some local content
3) Hawker Sea Fury FB11
The Sea Fury could have been in service from 1944, but was delayed for a number of reasons. Its delay was effectively an "own goal" for the RN. It would have been a fomridable wartime caqrrier borne fighter IMO. A number of MiG shoot downs were achieved with the type during Korea, and it was an exceptional fighter bomber. Post war it has been the mount of choicee in many air races because of its exceptionally high speed and good manouverability
The Sea Fury FB.11 was armed with the same four 20mm cannon as the Mk.X. It could carry two 500lb or 1,000lb bombs, twelve 3in rockets or four 180lb Triplex rockets under the wings, as well as two 45 or 90 gallon fuel drop tanks. Despite the increase in loaded weight performance was similar to that of the basic fighter versiuon of the Mk.X.
The FB.11 entered service with No.802 Squadron in May 1948, and eventually served with Nos.801, 802, 803, 804, 805 (RAN), 807 and 808 (RAN) Squadrons. There was also extensive foreifn usage of the type, and the type was able to operate from the decks of smaller carriers without difficulty. It saw service throughout the Korean War, but was withdrawn soon after the end of the war.
Engine: Bristol Centaurus XVIII
Power: 2,550hp
Crew: 1
Wing span: 38ft 4 ¾ in
Length: 37ft including tail hook, 34ft 8in without
Height: 15ft 10 ½ in
Empty Weight: 9,240lb
Loaded Weight: 12,500lb
Maximum Weight: 14,650lb
Max Speed: 460mph
Time to 30,000ft: 10.8 minutes
Service Ceiling: 35,800ft
Range: 700 miles with internal fuel, 1,040 miles with underwing drop tanks
Armament: Four 20mm Hispano Mk 5 cannon
Bomb-load: Two 500lb or 1,000lb bombs, twelve 3 inch rockets or four 180lb Triplex rockets (it could also pggy back sonabouys for the Firefly AS6 ASW aircraft)
