drgondog
Major
so many of the above not only flew but were deployed - scratch F7F and F8F and 260 and P-80 and XP-72, etc
The almost best fighters that never flew in WWII
- Thread starter CobberKane
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fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
It never flew apart from on a drawing board but the Hawker Fury with a 3,500 hp Rolls Royce Eagle engine would have been a beast.
oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
Did you bother to look the forum thread link I posted before you posted your response?
I had two sources for what I posted and I listed both. One was a possible post by GregP in another forum (I'll let GregP confirm whether I am off base here rather than post his comments verbatim-
the other source was a post by davparlr in this forum. if either or both of them are wrong then I am wrong. I am just relating to you what I read as were you. I consider my two sources reasonably credible as do you yours.
The point is, I made my source clear.
Here is another post by SoD Stitch from this forum which quotes text from "American Raiders", by Wolfgang W. E. Samuel wherin some USAF Pilots claim roughly equal performance and others claim 262 superiority:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/polls/me262-vs-p-80-a-562-19.html
One interesting post in this thread by drgondog suggests that one reason Yeager may have found the P-80 essentially equal in performance is that the Lockheed aircraft was under continuous development. That seems a likely possibility.
As to the political aspect of published test results I can tell you from my own experience that such biasing occurs. Whatever the original test results may have been, the quest for funding will surely overrule accurate reporting, as suggested in davparlr's post. To think otherwise is simply naive.
I am not arguing with the basic performance test results of the Me-262 I am sure they were generally accurately reported. The question at issue was how it compared to the P-80. Whatever the test results, there are claims about its design that are unfounded. IMO, the importance of the 262, as impressive as its performance was, has been inflated. That's just my opinion. A recent thread here dealt with the issue of wing sweep which has been frequently mischaracterized as a development primarily due to the Me-262 although quite frankly I can't cite a specific instance off hand. I believe that's a claim that has, over time diminished in the frequency of its occurrence as the history has become more widely understood.
Try this:
http://naziscienceliveson.devhub.com/blog/3359-me-262-wunderplane-or-compromise/
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GregP
Major
In another forum we had a long discussion about the P-80 and Me-262. General consensus was that the two were very equally matched with a slight edge to the P-80.
P-80C: 600 mph speed, 46000 feet service ceiling, 4580 fpm climb. P-80A max speed was 558 mph; even with the Me-262. Service ceiling was higher, too. Naturally, rate of roll was better without tip tanks and initial roll breakout was MUCH better ... again, without tip tanks ... as you would expect given that the Me-262 had engines underslung on the wings.
Me-262A-1a: 559 mph speed, 37,565 feet service ceiling, 3900 fpm climb.
There appear to be people who simply don't believe that the P-80 could fly as it did, and we agreed they could disagre and believe whatever they wanted. I will not engage in that argument in here again. If you go research it you'll find that even the first XP-80 was even with the Me-262 and only got better. Yes, the Me-262 could also have gotten better ... but it didn't due to the end of the war, and all the "what ifs" won't change that. The slight wing sweep in the Me-262, while a bit revolutionary, didn't really give as much help as has been popularly believed. The Me-262 was a great plane for WWII, but wasn't better than the P-80 Shooting Star; they were quite even. It is a shame they were never directly compared side by side in performance trials.
I don't believe it is a shame they never met in wartime except as an intellectual exercise. Wartime usually involves casulaties and a person's life isn't worth fighting two jets to see which one is better.
I CAN say that our T-33 at the Planes of Fame, before we traded it, was faster than a wartime Me-262. We now have a Canadian CT-133, which is considerably more powerful than a stock USA-made T-33. We start the Reno air races (Unlimited Class) in it every year these days.
P-80C: 600 mph speed, 46000 feet service ceiling, 4580 fpm climb. P-80A max speed was 558 mph; even with the Me-262. Service ceiling was higher, too. Naturally, rate of roll was better without tip tanks and initial roll breakout was MUCH better ... again, without tip tanks ... as you would expect given that the Me-262 had engines underslung on the wings.
Me-262A-1a: 559 mph speed, 37,565 feet service ceiling, 3900 fpm climb.
There appear to be people who simply don't believe that the P-80 could fly as it did, and we agreed they could disagre and believe whatever they wanted. I will not engage in that argument in here again. If you go research it you'll find that even the first XP-80 was even with the Me-262 and only got better. Yes, the Me-262 could also have gotten better ... but it didn't due to the end of the war, and all the "what ifs" won't change that. The slight wing sweep in the Me-262, while a bit revolutionary, didn't really give as much help as has been popularly believed. The Me-262 was a great plane for WWII, but wasn't better than the P-80 Shooting Star; they were quite even. It is a shame they were never directly compared side by side in performance trials.
I don't believe it is a shame they never met in wartime except as an intellectual exercise. Wartime usually involves casulaties and a person's life isn't worth fighting two jets to see which one is better.
I CAN say that our T-33 at the Planes of Fame, before we traded it, was faster than a wartime Me-262. We now have a Canadian CT-133, which is considerably more powerful than a stock USA-made T-33. We start the Reno air races (Unlimited Class) in it every year these days.
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- Thread starter
- #26
CobberKane
Banned
- 706
- Apr 4, 2012
I was waiting for someone to bring up the sea fury! Definately a strong candidtate. In fact, I think we have covered all the suspects I identified before I posted this thread. Remembering that we were looking at piston engined aircraft that were in production at the end of the war or very shortly afterwards, but never saw combat. And they had to be legitimate contenders for the title as they were, at that time:
Lavochkin La-9
DeHaviland Hornet.
Grumman Bearcat
Grumman Tigercat
P51H
Spitfire f.22
Do 335
Hawker Fury
F4U-5
The only other contender I can think of is The P47N. But did it see combat? If so I guess it misses out on a technicality, Like the Ta152H.
Incidentally, on the subject of jets, one that almost made it into combat but often gets overlooked in these discussions is the Vampire. It would have eated any of the other early jets in a dogfight, or any of the piston engines jobs metioned above I suspect.
Lavochkin La-9
DeHaviland Hornet.
Grumman Bearcat
Grumman Tigercat
P51H
Spitfire f.22
Do 335
Hawker Fury
F4U-5
The only other contender I can think of is The P47N. But did it see combat? If so I guess it misses out on a technicality, Like the Ta152H.
Incidentally, on the subject of jets, one that almost made it into combat but often gets overlooked in these discussions is the Vampire. It would have eated any of the other early jets in a dogfight, or any of the piston engines jobs metioned above I suspect.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Saw one fly at Chino and it is a magnificent aircraft.
The P-47N was quite successful in combat against the Japanese.
I think the Vampire was certainly in the class of the P-80/Me-262. The first Meteors were not. It is a shame it was delayed by the destruction of the engine in a P-80 test.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
The Vampire maintained the problem nany British fighters had lack of range IIRC correctly when the RCAF was demonstrating the Vampire post war across Canada it required in the neighbourhood of 20 stops for fuel which a logistics nightmare as jet fuel was not available in many areas
drgondog
Major
The P-47N and F7F were deployed in the pacific - with at least one night figter squadron w/USMC. The P-80 was deployed to Italy at the very end of the war (6?), the P-51H was deployed in squadron levels in April 45 and fully operational in CONUS in June 1945. The Do 335 was being shot at in April 1945 and IIRC the F4U-5 was deployed to CONUS based USMC in mid 1945, probably earlier.
So, confusing change from 'never flew' to 'deployed but never saw combat' to 'never were deployed to combat zones' to 'produced, deployed - but never shot at or fired a shot'?
What are you looking for?
Shortround6
Major General
"The Vampire maintained the problem nany British fighters had lack of range IIRC correctly when the RCAF was demonstrating the Vampire post war across Canada it required in the neighbourhood of 20 stops for fuel which a logistics nightmare as jet fuel was not available in many areas"
This rather points to why the US pre war fighters were 'bigger' than many European fighters. The range needed just to deploy from one area of the country to another called for more internal fuel.
This rather points to why the US pre war fighters were 'bigger' than many European fighters. The range needed just to deploy from one area of the country to another called for more internal fuel.
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Hello GregP
On D-3803. According to Peter Gunti's article in AE 47, the max speed of the D.3803 proto was 664km/h. Anyway both Saurer engines (YS-2 used in D-3802 and YS-3 used in D-3803) fell critically short in terms of reliability and performance.
Juha
On D-3803. According to Peter Gunti's article in AE 47, the max speed of the D.3803 proto was 664km/h. Anyway both Saurer engines (YS-2 used in D-3802 and YS-3 used in D-3803) fell critically short in terms of reliability and performance.
Juha
oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
Interesting Vincenzo. Evidently the Planes deployed to England (2) and Italy (2) were pre-production YP-80s, assuming wikipedia is correct:
Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Just an observation here, at the beginning of this thread, CobberKane posted:
There's countless threads (and arguments) devoted just to that subject already...
So why the argument regarding jets?
There's countless threads (and arguments) devoted just to that subject already...
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is well knewn that that sent were YP-80A. the wiki article is bad writed repeating 2 times the sent of the 4 planes in europe
windswords
Airman
buffnut453
Captain
And I'll put in yet another vote for the Martin Baker MB3 - another great "might have been" from WWII.
- Thread starter
- #39
CobberKane
Banned
- 706
- Apr 4, 2012
To clarify, I was thinking of prop driven planes that were in opperation at or shortly after WWII but didn't fire a shot in anger, air to air (so far as anyone knows). So the Tigercat, P51, Bearcat etc are in. I vote for the Do335 too, because while it might have been shot at I never heard of it scoring a kill. I would have liked to have included tha P-47M but it scored a few kills - about 15 I think. Hmm, the' Lightweight Thunderbolt' - maybe not he greatest fighter of WWII but a strong contender for the greatest oxymoron!
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Based On What and by whom??? Facts please!
Unfounded beliefs about Me 262? The bird was tested to death by Americans,English,Soviets,French , served with Chech air force! What secrets Me 262 has? Eric Brown reports that british tests fully confirmed german tests.
The permament response of the Americans in reports of axis aircrafts with superior performance is" exxagerated claims",no reliable tests etcetera... .Even when your own air force confirms ,still you can not accept it. Every body loves his country but let s try to be objective.[/QUOTE]
If memory serves in Chuck Yeager's book he mentions that Howard Hughes requested from the USAAF a Me262 so he could try to set a speed record with it. They flat refused. He relates that the USAAF wanted to put the Me262 to bed and there is inferred a possible controversy that the USAAF higher ups did not want the Me262 to outshine the then P-80.
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