THE AVRO CF-105 ARROW - WAS IT REALLY THAT GOOD?!?

[NITE]

HoHun,
That's a bit of a trick question.
I sure do have a link, but it's called D:new volume
That is the model I'm building for x-plane v 8.x
When it is done I will be posting it on the net.
It will be accurate in every respect, and include the drooping leading edges, the slight twist to the wings, a accurate cockpit, and hopefully even small details like the landing gear hydraulics, rivets etc
Regards,
NITE

 

[The Basket]

I think the importance of the Arrow and also the TSR2 is that the cancellation ruined the aero industries in both countries.

The Arrow would have been a high performer. No doubt.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Nite,

>It will be accurate in every respect, and include the drooping leading edges, the slight twist to the wings, a accurate cockpit, and hopefully even small details like the landing gear hydraulics, rivets etc

Sounds great! I'm looking forward to it! Please make sure to announce it on X-Plane.org when it's finished, I wouldn't want to miss it

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[NITE]

Hey, HoHun.
Want to try the .acf?
Remember, its only 50% done.
Regards,
NITE

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Again I'll state - the Arrow was a awesome aircraft in its day but in reality the program bit off more than what it can chew. Behind schedule and way over budget, the Diefenbaker's government was going to can it way before it was officially announced. Even in its planned format, it "would of" been able to perform one real function - shoot down Soviet bombers. Put it in a maneuvering conflict with even an F-4 and it "would of" been dead meat - the same holds true for the TSR2 - two extremely fast interceptors but by the late 70s, early 80s obsolete - and for the money that would of been pumped into both programs it would not of been worth its operational duration and ultimate obsolescence.

But with all that said, it did hurt the UK's and Canada's aerospace industry immensely when both programs were cancelled...

 

[johnbr]

I look at if they had continued its r/d and come out with the MK-3 it was to top out at MK 2.7 but MK 3.2 was possible they said cruise at Mach 1.2 on the deck and service ceiling 90'000ft

 

[SoD Stitch]

Again I'll state - the Arrow was a awesome aircraft in its day but in reality the program bit off more than what it can chew. Behind schedule and way over budget, the Diefenbaker's government was going to can it way before it was officially announced. Even in its planned format, it "would of" been able to perform one real function - shoot down Soviet bombers. Put it in a maneuvering conflict with even an F-4 and it "would of" been dead meat - the same holds true for the TSR2 - two extremely fast interceptors but by the late 70s, early 80s obsolete - and for the money that would of been pumped into both programs it would not of been worth its operational duration and ultimate obsolescence.

But with all that said, it did hurt the UK's and Canada's aerospace industry immensely when both programs were cancelled...

I thought the TSR-2 was originally developed as a low-level tactical nuclear strike bomber? I didn't know they (the UK) had ever planned on developing it as an interceptor; that's what the Lightning was for.

 

[NITE]

Well, you are right in a way.
Behind schedule? Have no idea where you got that one from.
It was supposed to be operational in 1963.
Over budget?
Possibly.
Originally designed at around 2 million cost, it would have been 3.5 million using the Hughes fire control system.
The Astra would have been a good "do all" if it had been successful.
In any event, for the price we paid for those 64 widowmaker voodoos, we could have had 130 Arrows.
As far as Diefenbaker's government canning it, I'm going to go so far as to say you know nothing about the Liberals and C.D. Howe and the Bay Street Boys.
Maneuverability against an F-4?
Stupid statement.
We never had an Arrow vs. Phantom duel.
Plus, like the Arrow, the Phantom was not originally fitted with a gun.
So want to discuss missile vs. missile ?
Or do you wish to discuss what could have been retrofitted?
Is the Arrow outdated?
Probably.
Was it capable of "holding its own" nowadays?
I believe so.
Is there better today?
A few.

As far as "one real function".
Wrong.
That is what the "interchangable weapons pack" was for.
And the sad thing was, I resurrected this thread just to show a bit of computer generated flight models and asked if a guy wanted to try it.
Regards,
NITE

 

[pbfoot]

The Arrow was a pretty advanced airplane but we just didn't have the where withal to carry it out . i disagree that it ruined our industry we just changed focus . The DHC aircraft being an example and Canadair , Bombardier , CAE , Spar PWC and Bristol let us play with the big boys in aerospace as we are 4th or 5th worlds largest aviation nation.

 

[NITE]

pbfoot,
Agreed.
However, remember Dehavilland, Bristol etc, are all related or spinoffs of...?
The Hawker-Siddeley group, which has now become BAE, and was parent of A.V. Roe.
Regards,
NITE

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I thought the TSR-2 was originally developed as a low-level tactical nuclear strike bomber? I didn't know they (the UK) had ever planned on developing it as an interceptor; that's what the Lightning was for.

You are correct and I stand corrected

 

[FLYBOYJ]

.
Maneuverability against an F-4?
Stupid statement.

Not at all - the Arrow had the visibility of a brick wall and needed miles to do a 180.

.
We never had an Arrow vs. Phantom duel.
Plus, like the Arrow, the Phantom was not originally fitted with a gun.
So want to discuss missile vs. missile ?
Or do you wish to discuss what could have been retrofitted?
Is the Arrow outdated?
Probably.
Was it capable of "holding its own" nowadays?
I believe so.
Is there better today?
A few.

The Arrow was a speculative conglomerations of "What ifs." It was never given the chance to mature in scenarios as I presented, but having flown in F-4s and reading about the Arrow, "would of and could of," even in the "Rhino Brick" its turn radius with the Arrow was comparing a bus to a sports car. The Arrow "would of" made a great interceptor if all the bugs "would of" been worked out of it and all the systems performed as advertised...

.
As far as "one real function".
Wrong.
That is what the "interchangable weapons pack" was for.
And the sad thing was, I resurrected this thread just to show a bit of computer generated flight models and asked if a guy wanted to try it.
Regards,
NITE

Would of, could of should of - the first prototypes were over budget and some of the systems weren't functioning properly in the early stages - "Would of" the bugs been worked out? Maybe....

The Arrow was a pretty advanced airplane but we just didn't have the where withal to carry it out . i disagree that it ruined our industry we just changed focus . The DHC aircraft being an example and Canadair , Bombardier , CAE , Spar PWC and Bristol let us play with the big boys in aerospace as we are 4th or 5th worlds largest aviation nation.

Canada could of been #2 or better. Canadair? A bastion of government subsidies and continual bailouts, all the rest of the companies mentioned were/ are top notch....

 

[NITE]

Well Sir, I've flown in a Panavia Tornado.
Your statement of flying an outdated phantom does not impress me.
Would have, could have, should have.
Never met the guy so unverifyable source.
My sources.
Arrow
Shutting Down The National Dream
Arrow Through The Heart
Fall of an Arrow
Storms Of Controversy
Personal talk with Jim Floyd
Input from an aerospace engineer.
And all the publicly available data.
I could go on but I am done here
I shall not be back, and no, I wont let the door hit me on the way out.
Regards, over and out.
NITE

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And this is all irrelevent.

The Arrow is a "Would Have, Could Have, Should Have"....

"But never did...."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well Sir, I've flown in a Panavia Tornado.
Your statement of flying an outdated phantom does not impress me.

It's not meant to. The facts are the facts, the Arrow wasn't built and the technology of the day would of quickly overtaken it - hard to swallow if you let nationalist pride get in the way....

I shall not be back, and no, I wont let the door hit me on the way out.

Good - I hate it when sh!t splatters!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Jesus Christ!

People stop being so sensative. Just because some one disagree with you, dont run off like a little girl!

In other words:

 

[FLYBOYJ]

 

[pbfoot]

Canadair now belongs to Bombardier

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Canadair now belongs to Bombardier

I know - I was there when Bombardier bought Canadair. They immediately fired all the former Trudeau cronies who had jobs for doing nothing. When I was at Canadair they had a VP of F-104 programs - years after the aircraft was retired from the CAF!!!! They also got rid of the government subsidized lunches and the barber.

There were great people who worked at Canadair and who are probably still there. There was also a lot of waste as some of the management felt they had nothing to loose since the company was government owned and it showed as initially the Challenger was the single most money loosing aircraft program in aviation history - socialism at its best....

 

[ArrowZero]

If the Project arrow was not cancelled, the aviation in Canada would be the same?