THE AVRO CF-105 ARROW - WAS IT REALLY THAT GOOD?!?
- Thread starter FLYBOYJ
- Start date
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Nonskimmer
Captain
I can't find my book! 
I had this place apart last night, and my nephew can't find it. He "couldn't remember" if he had it or not.
I'll be over to his place on the weekend, and while I'm there he and I will do a little hunting. It is a rare book, long out of print, so I'll be hard pressed to replace it unless I can find something on-line. It's not looking good.
I had this place apart last night, and my nephew can't find it. He "couldn't remember" if he had it or not.
I'll be over to his place on the weekend, and while I'm there he and I will do a little hunting. It is a rare book, long out of print, so I'll be hard pressed to replace it unless I can find something on-line. It's not looking good.
Dac
Airman 1st Class
Sorry to hear that NS.
Nonskimmer
Captain
Well I'm not done yet. I'll see what I can turn up. I want that book.
Wanna give me yours?
Wanna give me yours?
- Thread starter
- #65
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Great Photo! Note the Lancaster in the background!
Dac
Airman 1st Class
Nonskimmer said:Well I'm not done yet. I'll see what I can turn up. I want that book.
Wanna give me yours?
I would but...ahh...hmm, damn I can't think of an excuse at the moment.
I checked the Boston Mills Press website and it looks like the Arrow book is available in soft-cover for about $30.
Good eye FBJ you must be a pilot.
evangilder
"Shooter"
There you go, NS. I may have to look into that one myself.
Nonskimmer
Captain
Depending on how this weekend goes, I'll be looking that up!Dac said:I checked the Boston Mills Press website and it looks like the Arrow book is available in soft-cover for about $30.
In fact, I might as well just do it. I know damn well he lost the book. Or worse, gave it away.
Thanks for the heads up.
- Thread starter
- #69
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Dac said:
Dac
Airman 1st Class
No problem NS.
102first_hussars
Tech Sergeant
I think the Avero Aero could still today be a formidable foe of the enemy,
the Plane if it was rebuilt would just need upgrade electronic and technical,
I heard it can out preform the F-18 Hornet in some areas.
It was a big and heavy plane as well, its weight was equal to the Lanc Bomber of ww2, but new alloys exist now so if it was rebuil with lighter metals It could very well outperform the F-4 in speed and the F-15 in Agility.
the Plane if it was rebuilt would just need upgrade electronic and technical,
I heard it can out preform the F-18 Hornet in some areas.
It was a big and heavy plane as well, its weight was equal to the Lanc Bomber of ww2, but new alloys exist now so if it was rebuil with lighter metals It could very well outperform the F-4 in speed and the F-15 in Agility.
- Thread starter
- #72
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
102first_hussars said:
I think we're seening the thing wan't that maneuvable - it was a head of its time, but it's time has passed - I think it was sohwn that the F-106 was probably as good if not a better performer. I think the F-15, Tornado, F-16 and later Mirage models would of ate it for lunch....
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
the b47 was actually flown with just the iroqouis can't recall the source it may be anecdotlal as i worked with guys who saw the thing work and were present for most of the flights the arrow with it immense weapons bay and range it was well beyond the capabilities of the afore mentioned 106's and lightning the f 5s mentioned earlier were basically a an aircraft of little use to rcaf to due lack of range (required 8 refuellings on excercise flights from goose to norway) source for that info is myself it was manufactured to keep canadair working after the 104 production run was over the voodoo is my favourite and was totally outclassed by the arrow even in its prototype mode though they i believe both employed the j79 going back to the weapons systems with the updated electronics mostly weight saving it might of been a capable f111 contender
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
upon further search i vve discovered a link if read at the bottom what was achieved by the arrow http://www.globalaircraft.org/planes/cf-105_avro_arrow.pl
- Thread starter
- #75
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Great info - I think she would of been formidable against bombers but would of had a tough time air-to-air
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
i think the largest challenge would be find a manouverable fighter from that era the century series and f4 were all speed the russians followed suit with the migs and sukhois the sabres and hunters were on the down side in the eras mindset there was considerable debate as to ac needed guns
- Thread starter
- #77
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
pbfoot said:
I think Viet Nam proved the need for guns, especially close in with a small aircraft.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
buFirst a/c to fly with fly by wire AND artificial feedback (feel). Not even First a/c designed with digital computers being used for both aerodynamic analysis and designing the structural matrix (and a whole lot more).
First a/c design to have major components machined by CNC (computer numeric control); i.e., from electronic data which controlled the machine.
First a/c to be developed using an early form of "computational fluid dynamics" with an integrated "lifting body" type of theory rather than the typical (and obsolete) "blade element" theory.
First a/c to have marginal stability designed into the pitch axis for better maneuverability, speed and altitude performance.
First a/c to have negative stability designed into the yaw axis to save weight and cut drag, also boosting performance.
First a/c to fly on an electronic signal from the stick and pedals. i.e., first fly-by-wire a/c.
First a/c to fly with fly by wire AND artificial feedback (feel). Not even the first F-16's had this.
First a/c designed to be data-link flyable from the ground.
First a/c designed with integrated navigation, weapons release, automatic search and track radar, datalink inputs, home-on-jamming, infrared detection, electronic countermeasures and counter-countermeasures operating through a DIGITAL brain.
First high wing jet fighter that made the entire upper surface a lifting body. The F-15, F-22, Su-27 etc., MiG-29, MiG 25 and others certainly used that idea.
First sophisticated bleed-bypass system for both intake AND engine/exhaust. Everybody uses that now.
First by-pass engine design. (all current fighters have by-pass engines).
First combination of the last two points with an "ejector" nozzle that used the bypass air to create thrust at the exhaust nozzle while also improving intake flow. The F-106 didn't even have a nozzle, just a pipe.
Use of Titanium for significant portions of the aircraft structure and engine.
Use of composites (not the first, but they made thoughtful use of them and were researching and engineering new ones).
Use of a drooped leading edge and aerodynamic "twist" on the wing.
Use of engines at the rear to allow both a lighter structure and significant payload at the centre of gravity. Everybody copied that.
Use of a LONG internal weapons bay to allow carriage of specialized, long-range standoff and cruise missiles. (not copied yet really)
Integration of ground-mapping radar and the radar altimeter plus flight control system to allow a seriousstrike/reconnaissance role. The first to propose an aircraft be equally adept at those roles while being THE air-superiority fighter at the same time. (Few have even tried to copy that, although the F-15E is an interesting exception.)
First missile armed a/c to have a combat weight thrust to weight ratio approaching 1 to 1. Few have been able to copy that.
First flying 4,000 psi hydraulic system to allow lighter and smaller components.
First oxygen-injection re-light system.
First engine to have only two main bearing assemblies on a two-shaft design.
First to use a variable stator on a two-shaft engine.
First use of a trans-sonic first compressor stage on a turbojet engine.
First "hot-streak" type of afterburner ignition.
First engine to use only 10 compressor sections in a two-shaft design. (The competition was using 17!!)
The Avro Arrow was one of Canada's finest aviation achievements, even though it never entered service.
Source www.AvroArrow.org
^ Top ^
First a/c design to have major components machined by CNC (computer numeric control); i.e., from electronic data which controlled the machine.
First a/c to be developed using an early form of "computational fluid dynamics" with an integrated "lifting body" type of theory rather than the typical (and obsolete) "blade element" theory.
First a/c to have marginal stability designed into the pitch axis for better maneuverability, speed and altitude performance.
First a/c to have negative stability designed into the yaw axis to save weight and cut drag, also boosting performance.
First a/c to fly on an electronic signal from the stick and pedals. i.e., first fly-by-wire a/c.
First a/c to fly with fly by wire AND artificial feedback (feel). Not even the first F-16's had this.
First a/c designed to be data-link flyable from the ground.
First a/c designed with integrated navigation, weapons release, automatic search and track radar, datalink inputs, home-on-jamming, infrared detection, electronic countermeasures and counter-countermeasures operating through a DIGITAL brain.
First high wing jet fighter that made the entire upper surface a lifting body. The F-15, F-22, Su-27 etc., MiG-29, MiG 25 and others certainly used that idea.
First sophisticated bleed-bypass system for both intake AND engine/exhaust. Everybody uses that now.
First by-pass engine design. (all current fighters have by-pass engines).
First combination of the last two points with an "ejector" nozzle that used the bypass air to create thrust at the exhaust nozzle while also improving intake flow. The F-106 didn't even have a nozzle, just a pipe.
Use of Titanium for significant portions of the aircraft structure and engine.
Use of composites (not the first, but they made thoughtful use of them and were researching and engineering new ones).
Use of a drooped leading edge and aerodynamic "twist" on the wing.
Use of engines at the rear to allow both a lighter structure and significant payload at the centre of gravity. Everybody copied that.
Use of a LONG internal weapons bay to allow carriage of specialized, long-range standoff and cruise missiles. (not copied yet really)
Integration of ground-mapping radar and the radar altimeter plus flight control system to allow a seriousstrike/reconnaissance role. The first to propose an aircraft be equally adept at those roles while being THE air-superiority fighter at the same time. (Few have even tried to copy that, although the F-15E is an interesting exception.)
First missile armed a/c to have a combat weight thrust to weight ratio approaching 1 to 1. Few have been able to copy that.
First flying 4,000 psi hydraulic system to allow lighter and smaller components.
First oxygen-injection re-light system.
First engine to have only two main bearing assemblies on a two-shaft design.
First to use a variable stator on a two-shaft engine.
First use of a trans-sonic first compressor stage on a turbojet engine.
First "hot-streak" type of afterburner ignition.
First engine to use only 10 compressor sections in a two-shaft design. (The competition was using 17!!)
The Avro Arrow was one of Canada's finest aviation achievements, even though it never entered service.
Source www.AvroArrow.org
^ Top ^
Hi Nite,
>Here's a few pics from the magic of computer analysis and generation.
Outstanding! Do you have a link for the X-Plane model shown in the pictures? I have recently tried an Arrow for an older version of X-Plane, but in the latest X-Plane version (V8.60) it had some stability problems and wouldn't fly very well (read: crash by yawing uncontrollably right after take-off).
Thanks in advance!
Henning (HoHun)
>Here's a few pics from the magic of computer analysis and generation.
Outstanding!
Do you have a link for the X-Plane model shown in the pictures? I have recently tried an Arrow for an older version of X-Plane, but in the latest X-Plane version (V8.60) it had some stability problems and wouldn't fly very well (read: crash by yawing uncontrollably right after take-off).Thanks in advance!
Henning (HoHun)
