The Battle of Kursk - Biggest clash of armor.

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by JugBR, Sep 4, 2008.

  1. JugBR

    JugBR Active Member

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    well, when i saw that charlie posted some texts about the panther in the battle of kursk, in his topic dedicated to the panther tanks, it cheered me up to make a topic about this battle - the most important and the most amazing of ww2 in mine opinion -

    so, i´ll starting posting some very interesting quotes:

    "If the tanks succeed, then victory follows.

    General Heinz Guderian, the father of blitzkrieg and the writer of "Atchung, Panzer !".

    "the advance of an armoured army just could be stopped by another, in defensive position, with mines and anti-tank guns"

    General Narcise Chauvineu, defending in his book the idea that armoured armies could be stopped using mines and anti-tank guns.

    "A war is not lost until you consider it lost."

    General Erich von Manstein.

    "War is a science, a group of math problems, to be resolved by men and guns, in the time and space"

    General Georgi Zhukov.
     
  2. JugBR

    JugBR Active Member

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    Germans:

    After the fall in Stalingrad, fighting for survive.

    Stalingrad marks clearly a point of change in ww2, because when in 01/30/43, Hitler refered to Stalingrad in a speech, he wasnt talking about the consolidation and expansion of III Reich anyway.

    From the words of Hitler we are allowed to concludes that even the highest leader of nazi Germany had already realized that after Stalingrad, Germany wasnt fighting for victory anymore. but for survive.

    "The god of war has gone over to the other side."

    Adolf Hitler.

    Usefull sacrifice ?

    For many, the sacrifice of VI army in Stalingrad, was a non sense struggle between Hitler and Stalin. Others says that without the resistance of VI army, the german forces that was withdrawing from Caucasus, also could be surrounded by soviets, because soviets had not strenght enought to reach the black sea, since a great part of soviet forces was fighting in stalingrad.

    "If Paulus's army had capitulated before the end, the Russians would had the advantage of withdrawing forces against Paulus and against the southern front, where I had only two Romanian armies. Therefore, the resistance of the Sixth German Army, even to the death of the last man, was necessary."

    Field Marshall Erich von Manstein.

    After Stalingrad.

    Germans despite in great disadvantage and needing to cross 3 times more land than soviets, could withdraw at time of avoid the soviets to cut off their withdrawal, avoiding a siege.

    In the sequence of the enormous success that was the strategic withdrawal of Caucasus, german generals convinced Hitler to withdraw the german forces that was found in a equally dangerous situation, in the central sector, withdraw then 100 miles back on the Rhzev-Gjatzk-Vyazma line

    The withdrawal was made in April of 43, but produced a projection(salient), that immediately was occupied by soviet forces. the projection of Kursk.


    source of research: WikiQuote , Area Militar
     
  3. JugBR

    JugBR Active Member

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    images of the hell of stalingrad:
     
  4. B-17engineer

    B-17engineer Active Member

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    Hey that really interesting and I like that painting the last photo....Thanks for sharing !!
     
  5. SoD Stitch

    SoD Stitch Banned

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    Gee, who do you think's gonna win this battle? The five or six hardened Wehrmacht soldiers in the foreground, or the angry mob of 50 or 60 Russian soldiers headed their way? I'd say the barrel of that MG34 is pretty hot right about now . . . .
     
  6. m kenny

    m kenny Banned

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    I am pretty sure 'the horde' won. There is a lot of good wartime art about. It's a shame we don't see more of it.
    .
    .

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. JugBR

    JugBR Active Member

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    kenny i think that images says everything about what was their "great patriotic war" still today, the nazi flags on the floor, in the russian war museums, like a dirty piece of cloth.

    20 - 25 milion soviets deads kenny, was a genocide there.
     
  8. B-17engineer

    B-17engineer Active Member

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    lol I know It just a really nice painting
     
  9. JugBR

    JugBR Active Member

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    im very emotional b17...
     
  10. B-17engineer

    B-17engineer Active Member

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    huh? ..........
     
  11. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Some images of the battle.
     

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  12. B-17engineer

    B-17engineer Active Member

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    very nice charlie!
     
  13. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    A little more, this time Tiger related.

    To the front.

    [​IMG]


    loading up.


    [​IMG]


    In the bulge:

    [​IMG]


    Fighting:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  14. JugBR

    JugBR Active Member

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    nice pics charlie, im posting some pics about my visit in a museum in campinas, theres a krupp cannon there from reminds me that one i had saw in your post a month ago.

    when i finish there ill come back here to write more crap lolll

    my pc works in the speed of light... :rolleyes:
     
  15. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Charles or anyone else posting pics for this most interesting thread in the works; please try and ID the units if possible. I see Charles has posted from the Heavy tank component of the 2nd SS two well known photos.

    E ~
     
  16. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that would be the ideal thing, the problem I have is that in the book I took the pictures wich is "Images of Kursk" the epigraphs are very inaccurate.

    For example in a photo of a panzer IV said : "Tiger advancing to the battle" and other depicting a group of Panzer IIIs with schurzen said " panzer IV in the build up area"

    So, is best in my opinion let the people who knows better like you to indicate who is who and what are the units in the pictures.
     

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  17. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    top pic CB are Pz IV H's with Schurzen from the 3rd SS, please note the black III near the Balkenkreuz on the rear engine plate, for camo-ID protection the W-SS used I for the 1st, II for the 2nd and III for the 3rd W-SS Div.'s. Indeed I do own pics of other vehicles still drapped in regular W-SS Divisional insignia during the July battle. these were collected in the late 1960's-early 1970's before I really set myself into studying the Luftwaffe with a passion
     
  18. CharlesBronson

    CharlesBronson Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much, I must say that the Panzer III L and Panzer IV Gs of the Waffen SS in 1943 look extremely neat compared with the Heer ones.
     

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  19. JugBR

    JugBR Active Member

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    Soviets:

    The Tide Turns.

    from zhukov.mitsi.com:

    Operation Barbarossa, an attempt to "overthrow Soviet Russia by a rapid campaign," had failed. The Soviet Union had survived the German onslaught by trading the lives of millions of its soldiers and huge tracts of its territory for time. In the months following the invasion, the Soviet Union had relocated hundreds of industries and millions of workers, which were now producing weapons. Everything they could not dismantle and move was destroyed to prevent its use by the invaders. Communist, religious, and patriotic sentiments, as well as hatred of the fascist invaders, were all tapped in support of the war effort.

    Help from outside

    Now, Russia had the mobilization of entire country and also the valuable allied assistance. Allieds had provided the Red Army with a vast increase in the quantity of equipment that was equal or in some cases better than that possessed by the Germans.

    Some numbers of Lend-lease, from wikipedia.org:

    Aircraft - 14,795
    Tanks - 7,056
    Jeeps - 51,503
    Trucks - 375,883
    Motorcycles - 35,170
    Tractors - 8,071
    Guns - 8,218
    Machine guns - 131,633
    Explosives - 345,735 tons
    Building equipment valued - $10,910,000
    Railroad freight cars - 11,155
    Locomotives - 1,981
    Cargo ships - 90
    Submarine hunters - 105
    Torpedo boats - 197
    Ship engines - 7,784
    Food supplies - 4,478,000 tons
    Machines and equipment - $1,078,965,000
    Non-ferrous metals - 802,000 tons
    Petroleum products - 2,670,000 tons
    Chemicals - 842,000 tons
    Cotton - 106,893,000 tons
    Leather - 49,860 tons
    Tires - 3,786,000
    Army boots - 15,417,001 pairs

    A very know enemy.

    In 1943, russians was already very familiar with the german strategies. The espionage systems and the partisan movements began operates very efectively behind the front. The soviet leaderships adquired experience to fight the germans.

    Wasnt surprise for soviets that germans will join all their strenght to attack in kursk salient. The knowloge of enemy gave them the time to make their own plans. The biggest clash of armor was being designed on the horizon of russian sttepes...

    research sources WikiPedia Georgi Zhukov´s website
     
  20. parsifal

    parsifal Well-Known Member

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    Some iages of Russian forces in action between Stalingrad and Kursk. My main source is a Russian Book, which in English translates to the "Great Patriotic War 1941-45. It was given to me by my wifes Russian Grandfather, a Siberian Cavalryman. Dont know the details, because all of the captions are in Russian
     

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