Shortround6
Major General
Thank you.
The best 2-engined bomber in 1944-45?
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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Many thanks as always Neil.
(Dammit, I still owe you that NF.30 stuff... sorry)
Holy crap! Look at the difference the 76/77 makes! Had a quick check of the files, XVIs with 76/77s were certainly in action in the last months of the war.
wuzak
Captain
30hp doesn't seem that much a difference, but I guess it is the 2000-2500ft difference at which the power is achieved makes all the difference.
37mph difference on max weak mixture cruise....Wonder what it would do at max rich mixture?
This report shows a max weak mixture cruise of 352mph TAS at 32,000ft for a B.IX with Merlin 72/73 engines.
Max weak mixture is defined as 2650rpm and +4.0psi boost. Max rich mixture is 2650rpm and +7.0psi boost. 1 hour limit (defined as max climbing, but is that the only place it could be used) is 2850rpm and +12psi boost.
wuzak
Captain
Oh, those max speeds and max cruising speeds were corrected to 95% of max take-off weight (full fuel and 4 x 500lb bombs).
wuzak
Captain
I hadn't realised that the B.XVI could carry 5000lbs of bombs - 1 x 4000lb bomb in the bomb bay and one 500lb bomb under each wing. With 500 UK gallons of fuel that gives a maximum range of 1370 miles (max economical cruise) and a range of 850 miles at max weak mixture cruise.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Do You guys think we should define cruise speed more strictly?
My idea is to use cruise speed figures outbound as max. continous figure at the A/C´s best altitude with a fixed 1 t. bombload (2000lbs to 2204lbs). This is about the maximum bombload to be carried by some of the light twin engined bombers here. Bombers with internal bombbays, capable to hold 2200lbs should benefit here.
Do You agree?
My idea is to use cruise speed figures outbound as max. continous figure at the A/C´s best altitude with a fixed 1 t. bombload (2000lbs to 2204lbs). This is about the maximum bombload to be carried by some of the light twin engined bombers here. Bombers with internal bombbays, capable to hold 2200lbs should benefit here.
Do You agree?
wuzak
Captain
Not sure that equalising to the same bomb load is the best way.
I think most cruise speeds you would be able to find will be for max range (ie most economical) and for internal bomb loads only. I think that keeping that consistent across all aircraft would be better.
Same for range. It should be only for normal fuel tanks, not overload or external fuel tanks.
Neil Stirling
Airman 1st Class
Mosquito B XVI 100 gall drop tanks.
Neil.
Neil.
Shortround6
Major General
Perhaps two bomb weights/ranges could be considered and averaged/normalized?
Excluding such things as the He 177, Manchester and Vickers Warrwick it seems the max bomb load that could be carried any distance was 7,000-8,000lbs (misprint?) over 630 miles by the Whitley? Dropping the bomb load to 5500lbs the Whitley could cover 1370 miles. While a He 111 could lift 7150lbs of bombs it was over about 400 miles.
Perhaps 4000/4500lbs load and range shoud be considered and 2000/2200lbs load and range?
Excluding such things as the He 177, Manchester and Vickers Warrwick it seems the max bomb load that could be carried any distance was 7,000-8,000lbs (misprint?) over 630 miles by the Whitley? Dropping the bomb load to 5500lbs the Whitley could cover 1370 miles. While a He 111 could lift 7150lbs of bombs it was over about 400 miles.
Perhaps 4000/4500lbs load and range shoud be considered and 2000/2200lbs load and range?
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Possible. Though in this case, we would have to exclude all airplanes, which are unable to lift 4000lbs.
If my numbers are right that includes:
Pe-2FT
Me-410
Ki-67 (it could lift more but only in a Kamikaze mission profile)
If my numbers are right that includes:
Pe-2FT
Me-410
Ki-67 (it could lift more but only in a Kamikaze mission profile)
parsifal
Colonel
couldnt you just add another column to the table to accommodate the two bombloads, and those types that cant lift that load get an NA result.
Shortround6
Major General
I wouldn't say that a bomber that can carry 4000lbs over 1200 miles is twice as good as one that carries 2000lbs over the same distance but the whole purpose of a bomber is to carry bombs over long distances. Some planes had more flexibility than others in trading bombs for fuel.
The He 111 chart so kindly provided by Kreighund helps tell the story. The He 111 could carry up to 2555kg of fuel in the normal tanks although even a full bomb load of eight 250kg bombs required leaving 100kg of fuel out without going into overload condition. Either side of the internal bomb bay could be fitted with a tank that held another 620kg of fuel, However fitting both sides with fuel tanks reduces the available payload to 660kg or below and hung outside. Useful for recon or a nuisance raid with a pair of 250kg bombs? Max bomb load in the chart (below what some web sites claim) has a range under 400 miles. Perhaps more fuel could be carried with rocket assist take-off?
where do you draw the line?
What is a useful bomb load for a late WW II bomber?
And over what range?
I don't want them included but at wars end a P-38 could carry a pair of 1600lbs bombs on a 250 mile radius mission if it flew the right mission profile (altitude). A P-47N could carry a pair of 1000lbs on a 300 mile radius mission at 25,000ft.
These radius's include 20 minutes of combat (5min at WER and 15 min at full Military power) and a pretty high cruise speed. Their accuracy may leave a bit to be desired but if a twin engine bomber cannot out haul a fighter plane it's inclusion in a "best" list is a little suspect even if interesting.
The He 111 chart so kindly provided by Kreighund helps tell the story. The He 111 could carry up to 2555kg of fuel in the normal tanks although even a full bomb load of eight 250kg bombs required leaving 100kg of fuel out without going into overload condition. Either side of the internal bomb bay could be fitted with a tank that held another 620kg of fuel, However fitting both sides with fuel tanks reduces the available payload to 660kg or below and hung outside. Useful for recon or a nuisance raid with a pair of 250kg bombs? Max bomb load in the chart (below what some web sites claim) has a range under 400 miles. Perhaps more fuel could be carried with rocket assist take-off?
where do you draw the line?
What is a useful bomb load for a late WW II bomber?
And over what range?
I don't want them included but at wars end a P-38 could carry a pair of 1600lbs bombs on a 250 mile radius mission if it flew the right mission profile (altitude). A P-47N could carry a pair of 1000lbs on a 300 mile radius mission at 25,000ft.
These radius's include 20 minutes of combat (5min at WER and 15 min at full Military power) and a pretty high cruise speed. Their accuracy may leave a bit to be desired but if a twin engine bomber cannot out haul a fighter plane it's inclusion in a "best" list is a little suspect even if interesting.
Shortround6
Major General
Well, it is 1000 miles from Berlin to Moscow.
Distance Berlin → Moscow - Distance between Berlin and Moscow
If the He 111 could fly 4400lbs of bombs a 2000km (1240 mile) radius what were they fooling around with the He 177 for
parsifal
Colonel
facts are, under operational conditions, He111s had nowhere near that range. Want an idea of the types true operational capabilities.....look at its operations in the Stalingrad operation, when it operated generally at a range of 150 miles, carrying around 2/3 its max lift capacity.
"The necessary aircraft and crews for the Stalingrad airlift were assembled on short notice from the advanced flight training schools, using mostly Ju-52 and He-111 aircraft (Boog, 1978: 142). The Ju-52 carried about two and a half tons of cargo, and the He-111 could carry only two tons (or 4500 lbs). Von Richthofen began airlift operations as ordered on 24 November. Approximately 320 Ju-52 and Ju-86 transports located at Tazinskaya and approximately 190 He-111 bombers at Morosovskaya (150 miles distant from Pitomnik) were available to conduct the airlift. Neither transport type could trade much fuel for freight, because the distance from Tazinskaya to Pitomik, the main airfield at Stalingrad, was 140 miles (Whiting, 1978: 114). The primary load delivered to Stalingrad was ammunition, which the Germans desperately needed to withstand the Russian attacks. The Germans had previously agreed to slaughter and eat the horses that had carried their supplies when they first arrived in Stalingrad. But eventually even the horses were gone.
The high point of the airlift occurred when 700 tons was delivered between 19 and 21 December—that is, 700 tons for all three days combined (Whiting, 1978: 114).
The supply airfields at Tazinskaya and Morosovskaya fell into Russian hands on 22 December, increasing the distance the transports had to fly from 140 to 200 miles. Manstein gave up hope of relieving Stalingrad on 23 December (Jukes, 1985: 125). At 200 miles, the he 111 had to further reduce lift capacity, down to about half its combat rating. Pitomik airfield was overrun on 16 January, and the smaller auxiliary airfield at Gumrak was seized on 21 January (Whiting, 1978: 115). The Sixth Army was split into two pockets by the Russian Army, with no hope of relief or resupply. Paulus, in the southern pocket, surrendered on 31 January, but the German troops in the northern pocket held out for two more days. German radio reported the fall of Stalingrad on 3 February".
Source:
From Stalingrad to Khe Sanh: Factors in the Successful Use of Tactical Airlift to Support Isolated Land Battle Areas, Dr. David K. Vaughan, Air Force Institute of Technology, Major James H. Donoho, Air Combat Command
"The necessary aircraft and crews for the Stalingrad airlift were assembled on short notice from the advanced flight training schools, using mostly Ju-52 and He-111 aircraft (Boog, 1978: 142). The Ju-52 carried about two and a half tons of cargo, and the He-111 could carry only two tons (or 4500 lbs). Von Richthofen began airlift operations as ordered on 24 November. Approximately 320 Ju-52 and Ju-86 transports located at Tazinskaya and approximately 190 He-111 bombers at Morosovskaya (150 miles distant from Pitomnik) were available to conduct the airlift. Neither transport type could trade much fuel for freight, because the distance from Tazinskaya to Pitomik, the main airfield at Stalingrad, was 140 miles (Whiting, 1978: 114). The primary load delivered to Stalingrad was ammunition, which the Germans desperately needed to withstand the Russian attacks. The Germans had previously agreed to slaughter and eat the horses that had carried their supplies when they first arrived in Stalingrad. But eventually even the horses were gone.
The high point of the airlift occurred when 700 tons was delivered between 19 and 21 December—that is, 700 tons for all three days combined (Whiting, 1978: 114).
The supply airfields at Tazinskaya and Morosovskaya fell into Russian hands on 22 December, increasing the distance the transports had to fly from 140 to 200 miles. Manstein gave up hope of relieving Stalingrad on 23 December (Jukes, 1985: 125). At 200 miles, the he 111 had to further reduce lift capacity, down to about half its combat rating. Pitomik airfield was overrun on 16 January, and the smaller auxiliary airfield at Gumrak was seized on 21 January (Whiting, 1978: 115). The Sixth Army was split into two pockets by the Russian Army, with no hope of relief or resupply. Paulus, in the southern pocket, surrendered on 31 January, but the German troops in the northern pocket held out for two more days. German radio reported the fall of Stalingrad on 3 February".
Source:
From Stalingrad to Khe Sanh: Factors in the Successful Use of Tactical Airlift to Support Isolated Land Battle Areas, Dr. David K. Vaughan, Air Force Institute of Technology, Major James H. Donoho, Air Combat Command
Shortround6
Major General
I am not sure if the field conditions might not have had something to do with that. Just guessing here but trying to get a heavily loaded bomber off a crappy airfield in winter is going to be really difficult.
I don't have any information on the He 111 but here is a chart for the B-25, take-off run can vary from 1000ft at 28,000lbs with a 40 kt head wind and a hard runway to 8,000ft at 36,000lbs at zero wind on a "soft" runway.
0 wind at 28,000lbs on the soft runway is 3500ft.
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/B-25/B25TOC&LC.pdf
I would imagine that the He 111 follows a similar pattern.
I don't have any information on the He 111 but here is a chart for the B-25, take-off run can vary from 1000ft at 28,000lbs with a 40 kt head wind and a hard runway to 8,000ft at 36,000lbs at zero wind on a "soft" runway.
0 wind at 28,000lbs on the soft runway is 3500ft.
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/B-25/B25TOC&LC.pdf
I would imagine that the He 111 follows a similar pattern.
parsifal
Colonel
yes, i agree. Another example perhaps worth looking at were the LF5 attacks in the north east of England, 15 august 1940. Does anyone have the basic statistics for these raids. Are they indicative?
Shortround6
Major General
Well it is 429 miles from Stavanger to Glasgow. 390 miles from Stavanger to New Castle. I don't know where the Luftwaffe 5 airfields were or what the bomb loads were but if you figure that radius is about 1/3 of range this is certainly in line.
436 miles from Le Harve to Belfast. I don't know where the bombers that hit Belfast were from and that is a straight line. Perhaps the planes were only carring 1 ton apiece? they were carrying large loads of incendiaries which are usually more volume limited than weigh t limited.
436 miles from Le Harve to Belfast. I don't know where the bombers that hit Belfast were from and that is a straight line. Perhaps the planes were only carring 1 ton apiece? they were carrying large loads of incendiaries which are usually more volume limited than weigh t limited.
Sorry SR6 last night (is good don't math the night after beer) i've confusing the convert factor when i put in same measure the 111 and whitley data
i do again now
Plane/Range/Bombload/Fuelload (metric) [fuel gals to 7.2 lbs]
111H/640/3250/1040
111H/1270/2500/1790
111H/1885/2000/2425
111H/2000/1750/2555
111H/2465/1000/3175
WhitleyVII/2189/2495/2303
WhitleyVII/2623/2041/2734
WhitleyVII/3058/1588/3165
WhitleyVII/3492/1134/3596
WhitleyV/1014/3629/1208
WhitleyV/2205/2495/2303
WhitleyV/2647/2041/2734
WhitleyV/3106/1588/3165
is strange that with more fuel and less bomb the 111 had less range, unlucky we have no data on 111 cruise
i do again now
Plane/Range/Bombload/Fuelload (metric) [fuel gals to 7.2 lbs]
111H/640/3250/1040
111H/1270/2500/1790
111H/1885/2000/2425
111H/2000/1750/2555
111H/2465/1000/3175
WhitleyVII/2189/2495/2303
WhitleyVII/2623/2041/2734
WhitleyVII/3058/1588/3165
WhitleyVII/3492/1134/3596
WhitleyV/1014/3629/1208
WhitleyV/2205/2495/2303
WhitleyV/2647/2041/2734
WhitleyV/3106/1588/3165
is strange that with more fuel and less bomb the 111 had less range, unlucky we have no data on 111 cruise
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See attached range table of a H-4 with Jumo 211 D-1 engines
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