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so multiply the values for range and pay load by 3; survivability (defence, speed etc etc) by 2; and the rest by 1.
Cause we compare airframes to eachother we can simply state that the defensive guns on a B29 where better than the turrets on a B17 which where better than the handaimed HE177. (I would put the ECM and stuf in this catagory also)
Same with flying characteristics (alt, speed stability) bunch it together.
The Mossies ( I mean the bomber variant) only defence was it's speed and end war it got overtaken by He-219 (rubbish overall but could kill the Mossie or it claimed it could) and Me-262 (which flew 1st in april 1941!) And as such was cannonfodder, if the Germans where in a better situation. The Mossie was a great airplane which found a gap in German defence.
My point being: Speed is not a substitude for defence. It can only hope to be so for a relative short time. After that the plane get obsolete very fast. All Japanese bombers where designed around high speed and long range. They got slaughtered when fighter speed caught up. And due to the speed being important design aspect they couldn't upgrade the aircraft with self sealing tanks and more armor etc.
This does not explain why the Mosquito had the lowest attrition rate of any RAF bomber during the war,
despite easily undertaking the most hazardous missions,
or that the Mosquito remained a viable bomber, the last not being retired until aboput 1960 as I recall.
And only a proportion of the Mosquitoes were unarmed. The majority packed a heavy nose armament, whilst also carrying a respectable offensive warload.
But we need to get training and strategy out of the equation, cause they don't say a thing about the aircraft.
I do think we should find some way to differentiate the most important qualities for a bomber.
It depends on the situation - the Mosquito had the highest loss rate of all RAF bombers (about double that of the conventional bombers) when it was first introduced, and was facing German day fighters over France. Those could fairly easily catch a Mosquito, and as was the case with every 'fast' bomber of the day, they become vulnerable overnight as newer, faster fighters appeared, as their only defense was speed.
In other words, it proved to be just as, if not more vulnerable to enemy fighter than the existing RAF bomber types which were escorted.
Hardly "the most hazardous"... they operated mostly at night, when the enemy fighter opposition was slow twin engined fighters, amongst far more numerous, slow and low flying heavy bomber streams which were the primary target of enemy night fighters; or as high flying nuisance bombers during the night.
I can hardly think of less hazardous missions, actually.
I guess for the same reason most airforces kept prop jobs for bomber roles - no serious enemy air defense, range and consumption issues with jet engines for bomber roles, lack of founding for conventional weapons when everyone was going for the A-bomb.
Fat chances against a day fighter, a heavy, loaded twin engine laden with bombs.. (BTW, what's particularly respectable in 900 kg of bombload...? Thats pretty avarage for a light bomber of the time, hell even some of the single engines could carry that much, see P-47, Fw 190 etc.)
I will give a more detailed reply later but in the meantime Kurfurst can I ask for any examples of Mossie bombers being easily caught by German day fighters in any numbers.
I say this as I do have the breakdown of losses by No 2 Group for their daylight losses for 1944.
No of Sorties 1732
Losses to Flak 17
Losses to Fighters 1
Accidents 2
Unknown 9
Even if all the unknown are due to Fighters ( a big assumption) you have a loss rate of less than 0.6%. Not too shabby for missions that included daylight raids over Berlin without escort many hndreds of miles behind the German front line.
You might add that the Mosquito is believed to have shot down approximately 600 german SE day fighters, whilst suffering neglible losses themselves.
The bombload stated i Kurfursts post is average, unless you factor in the other aspect of tat capacity, namely that the Mosquito could carry that weight of bombs all the way to Berlin, something worth noting and quite rare.
In any case, the figures Glider posted (who had yet failed to apologize for his past behavaviour and until he will do so, will be not adressed directly) are strawman arguments,
To a degree accurate but very misleading. It is true to say that in 1942 the Mossie had a loss rate roughly double that of the other medium bomber types in No 2 group. Actual figures areIt depends on the situation - the Mosquito had the highest loss rate of all RAF bombers (about double that of the conventional bombers) when it was first introduced, and was facing German day fighters over France. Those could fairly easily catch a Mosquito, and as was the case with every 'fast' bomber of the day, they become vulnerable overnight as newer, faster fighters appeared, as their only defense was speed.
In other words, it proved to be just as, if not more vulnerable to enemy fighter than the existing RAF bomber types which were escorted.
I do agree with Kurfurst here but not the language. As a fighter in a dogfight the lighter 109 and 190 had all the aces. I do know of one Mosquito 109 combat where the 109's sufferred but nothing should be drawn from it. The Mosquitos had the advantage and the 109's didn't see them. The Mosquito's had the bounce made the most of it and kept going in a straight line to get away. By the time the 109 pilots had sorted themselves out the Mosquito's were long gone.Fat chances against a day fighter, a heavy, loaded twin engine laden with bombs..
Again a true but misleading statement. The question is How many could carry 900KG all the way to Berlin in daylight and suffer lower than average losses.(BTW, what's particularly respectable in 900 kg of bombload...? Thats pretty avarage for a light bomber of the time, hell even some of the single engines could carry that much, see P-47, Fw 190 etc.)
As promised a more detailed reply.
To a degree accurate but very misleading. It is true to say that in 1942 the Mossie had a loss rate roughly double that of the other medium bomber types in No 2 group. Actual figures are
Blenhiem 577 with 25 losses (taken out of service by August)
Boston 1,238 with 33 losses
Mosquito 357 with 27 losses
Ventura 81 with 12 losses
However to then say that the German fighters could easily catch the Mosquito is totally wrong. Very few of the losses were caused by fighters...
And the evidence behind this statement is?
The question is How many could carry 900KG all the way to Berlin in daylight and suffer lower than average losses.
The 19th July was a Boston Mission where one was shot down by a fighter
No missions on the 28th and 29th July but there were Boston missions. Suggest that there seems to be a problem in identification.