The best fighter of the 1950's.

Vincenzo · May 3, 2009

renrich said:
I am not sure the F8U was operational in the 1950s. I was working at Temco Aircraft in 55-56 and I know they were not in production with the F8U(Temco was next door to Vought) and I am not sure they had a prototype at that time. We did hear they were going with a variable incidence wing to solve some of the problems of the F7U,(high AOA during landing) but it seems a stretch to call the F8U an AC of the 50s.

commonly is indicate 1957 as year first assignation to navy squadron (VF-32 and 154)

drgondog · May 3, 2009

I see no MiG-19s shot down in VN. Out of 122 total awards, 26 were MiG 21s and most of the rest (except two AN-2's) were MiG-17s

Of the 14 shot down by F-8's, one was a Mig 21, 13 were MiG 17s

The MiG 21 was shot down by Sidewinder, four MiG 17s were 20mm/9 Sidewinder.

Of the 122 air to air awards, 33 were USN - 89 USAF

I'll dig for F-8 losses but don't recall any air to air. I have to research this.

FLYBOYJ · May 3, 2009

During the war, 42 Navy F-8s and 20 RF-8s and 12 Marine F-8s were lost to flak and small arms fire over Vietnam. SAMs accounted for 10 Navy Crusaders. All twenty of the reconnaissance Crusaders from VFP-63 and all twelve of the reconnaissance Crusaders from VMCJ-1 lost in action were downed by flak or by SAMs, with none being lost to MiGs. At least three Navy Crusaders were lost to MiGs, all of them being the F-8E fighter version.

It was to be in air-to-air combat against North Vietnamese fighters that the Crusader was to gain its reputation as "MiG Master". The first encounter with North Vietnamese MiGs took place in early April of 1965. On that occasion, the MiGs only damaged one F-8, but they shot down two F-105s the next day. The first confirmed Navy kills came on July 17, 1965, when two F-4Bs from VF-21 shot down a pair of MiG-17s. The Crusader got its first MiG kill on June 12, 1966, when Cmdr Harold L. Marr of VF-211 shot down a MiG-17 while escorting an A-4 strike against targets in the North.

All of the Crusader MiG kills (with the possible exception of two or three) were made by the Sidewinder air-to-air missile. There were only two "guns-only" MiG kills by Crusader pilots. The cannon armament of the Crusader proved to be somewhat troublesome, and the guns would frequently jam. During rapid turns and high accelerations, the ammunition belts would often develop kinks, causing the ammunition feed to be disrupted and the guns to jam. For a time, the Crusader was the leading MiG-killer over Vietnam, accounting for a total of 18 confirmed victories. All of them occurred within a two-year span (1966-1968), and after that all Navy MiG kills were by F-4 Phantoms. The last Crusader MiG kill took place on September 19, 1968, when Lt Anthony Nargi of VF-111's Det II destroyed a MiG-21.

F-8 Crusader

FLYBOYJ · May 3, 2009

From Wiki...

Back side and table in Appendix B in Peter Mersky:F-8 Cusader Units of the Vietnam War

Name Squadron Aircraft Date
CDR Harold L. Marr VF-211 MiG-17 12 June 1966
LT Eugene J. Chancy VF-211 MiG-17 21 June 1966
LTJG Philip V. Vampatella VF-211 MiG-17 21 June 1966
CDR Richard M. Bellinger VF-162 MiG-21 9 October 1966
CDR Marshall O. Wright VF-211 MiG-17 1 May 1967
CDR Paul H. Speer VF-211 MiG-17 19 May 1967
LTJG Joseph M. Shea VF-211 MiG-17 19 May 1967
LCDR Bobby C. Lee VF-24 MiG-17 19 May 1967
LT Phillip R. Wood VF-24 MiG-17 19 May 1967
LCDR Marion H. Isaacks VF-24 MiG-17 21 July 1967
LCDR Robert L. Kirkwood VF-24 MiG-17 21 July 1967
LCDR Ray G. Hubbard, Jr. VF-211 MiG-17 21 July 1967
LT Richard E. Wyman VF-162 MiG-17 14 December 1967
CDR Lowell R. Myers VF-51 MiG-21 26 June 1968
LCDR John B. Nichols VF-191 MiG-17 9 July 1968
CDR Guy Cane VF-53 MiG-17 29 July 1968
LT Norman K. McCoy, Jr. VF-51 MiG-21 1 August 1968
LT Anthony J. Nargi VF-111 MiG-17 19 September 1968
LT Gerald D. Tucker VF-211 MiG-17 22 April 1972

FLYBOYJ · May 3, 2009

drgondog said:
I see no MiG-19s shot down in VN.

Madden and DeBellevue got 2 on Sept 9, 1972

drgondog · May 3, 2009

Joe - here is my list of air to air and I'm still working on it... I just noticed I looked only through 1967

As to F-8 losses - all three in 1966 to Mig 17's.

As to F-8s being leading MiG killer, the 355th alone had more MiG kills in F-105s than all the F-8s combined in all the USN units.

I just tried to upload my Awards spreadsheet and noticed the site won't take it.

FLYBOYJ · May 3, 2009

You're right about the 355th - I just caught that.

As far as your spead sheet - is it word or excel?

drgondog · May 3, 2009

FLYBOYJ said:
You're right about the 355th - I just caught that.

As far as your spead sheet - is it word or excel?

Excel. This is what I started from..
U.S. Air-to-Air Victories during the Vietnam War, Part 2

Interesting (to some) notes

20mm kills
28/53 = F-105
17/53 = F-4
5/53 = F-8
2/53 = A-1H
1/53 = F-100

F-105 killed more w/20mm than all other ships combined

On the MiG 19 I have 7 shot down air to air, all in 1972, 2 USN, 5 USAF - all missle kills, all F-4 kills.

My stuff differs from Wiki

FLYBOYJ · May 3, 2009

drgondog said:
Excel. This is what I started from..
U.S. Air-to-Air Victories during the Vietnam War, Part 2

Interesting (to some) notes

20mm kills
28/53 = F-105
17/53 = F-4
5/53 = F-8
2/53 = A-1H
1/53 = F-100

F-105 killed more w/20mm than all other ships combined

On the MiG 19 I have 7 shot down air to air, all in 1972, 2 USN, 5 USAF - all missle kills, all F-4 kills.

My stuff differs from Wiki

Its hard to download stuff from that site but I take their info over wiki.

In reality the real gunfighter of the Vietnam War was the F-105!

Doughboy · May 3, 2009

F-86 Sabre.

drgondog · May 3, 2009

FLYBOYJ said:
Its hard to download stuff from that site but I take their info over wiki.

In reality the real gunfighter of the Vietnam War was the F-105!

Desparation is the motherhood of necessity! But yep, they did amazingly well considering the lack of agility.

But the Thud drivers loved their beast. We just got "Mary Lou" done at Heritage park at DM. It (replica F-105D/354FS/355TFW) was the top mig killer 105 with two different pilots and Brestel's bird when he doubled on Mig 17s.

FLYBOYJ · May 3, 2009

drgondog said:
Desparation is the motherhood of necessity! But yep, they did amazingly well considering the lack of agility.

But the Thud drivers loved their beast. We just got "Mary Lou" done at Heritage park at DM. It (replica F-105D/354FS/355TFW) was the top mig killer 105 with two different pilots and Brestel's bird when he doubled on Mig 17s.

Very cool!

Lucky13 · May 3, 2009

"Bud" Anderson of "Old Crow" fame flew 105 in 'Nam....still named "Öld Crow".

drgondog · May 3, 2009

Lucky13 said:
"Bud" Anderson of "Old Crow" fame flew 105 in 'Nam....still named "Öld Crow".

He did indeed - with the 355th TFW, the same wing we are talking about as top 105 mig killer wing. He was 355th Wing King in 1970

Soren · May 3, 2009

So far it is my opinion that these five a/c are the top contenders:

Electric Lightning
F-8 Crusader
MIG-21
F-106 Delta Dart
MIG-19

Lucky13 · May 3, 2009

Try to think here fellas, none of the crates on this list is missiles only, or am I wrong?

koutsivtom · May 3, 2009

To my opinion Mig - 21 is the best fighter of the 50's.It didn't had radar when it was first arreared,without an ergonomical copkit,it had a very poor engine,very poor armor and technicaly it was an plane of the 40 with a jet engine but it is one of the BETTER PLANES OF THE CENTURY for only one reason!Because it is the only of the planes of the list that it is still in service with many air forces around the world!(we forgot the F-4 or am i wrong?)

FLYBOYJ · May 3, 2009

koutsivtom said:
To my opinion Mig - 21 is the best fighter of the 50's.It didn't had radar when it was first arreared,without an ergonomical copkit,it had a very poor engine,very poor armor and technicaly it was an plane of the 40 with a jet engine but it is one of the BETTER PLANES OF THE CENTURY for only one reason!Because it is the only of the planes of the list that it is still in service with many air forces around the world!(we forgot the F-4 or am i wrong?)

You are wrong - one of the main reasons why there were so many around was because they were inexpensive to purchase and for the most part operate.

I think many air forces still operate them more out of necessity and economics than anything else.

vikingBerserker · May 3, 2009

I have to agree, if longevity was the only rule of thumb to judge military hardware, then the best ship in the world would be the HMS Victory (251 years old).

drgondog · May 3, 2009

Craig Baker put "Mary Kay", as flown by Paul Seymour on his last tour, on the homepage. "She" is the only 3 kill F-105.

Mary Kay Seymour passed away this March - which brought out a large turn out at her funeral.

Craig Baker's F-105 Site, The Awesome Thunderchief

This is the BEST Thud website - the Baker's put together a fitting tribute.

This Mary Kay at Davis Monthan

The best fighter of the 1950's.

The best fighter of the 1950's

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Hawker Hunter

MIG-19

F-105 Thunderchief

English Electric Lighting

F-100 Super Sabre

Dassault Super Mystère

MIG-21

F-86 Sabre

F-8 Crusader

F-106 Delta Dart

F-102 Delta Dagger

F-104 Starfighter

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