The Bf 109 aka ME-109 landing gear myth research thread.

[Tante Ju]

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[P-40K-5]

heres an example of the 'Blitz Week'. 100 P-47's escorting a group of bombers

'On the last day of Blitz Week (30 July) VIII Bomber Command targeted the Fieseler Works in Kassel. III./JG 11 and III./JG 1 were not scrambled until after the bombers crossed into Germany over Eifel. By the time they were in the air the bombers were near Emmerich am Rhein before they were intercepted. The Bf 109s were unexpectedly surprised by some 100 P-47 Thunderbolts escorts, newly equipped with drop tanks. III./JG 11 shot down two bombers but in the first major fighter combat of the Defense of the Reich lost two aircraft, with one pilot wounded and one dead.'

III./JG11 III./JG1 at that time had around 50 Bf109's ready. maybe 53. remarkable.

however no matter how good the LW pilots were, they were outnumbered, and thus, had a limited shelf life.

 

[Micdrow]

Wow Tante Ju, you need to calm down. Its almost like you are insulted by the document. I will check out your documents.

Thanks Paul

 

[Tante Ju]

I am very cool, dear Micdrow, no worry.. even if wheater is very hot.. not insulted at all! Just say, sorry sometime, I cannot say right the things..

 

[Micdrow]

I am very cool, dear Micdrow, no worry.. even if wheater is very hot.. not insulted at all! Just say, sorry sometime, I cannot say right the things..

No worries here, Ive been out of the saddle for two years on the board and trying to catch up due to personal problems. Documents of WWII I love as you can see by the technical library.

All the best
Paul

 

[Milosh]

There are 920 fighter plane (109 type) servicable, 917 pilots to fly them.. what about it?

It says there was 676 pilots ready to fly those 712 serviceable 109s.

There was not 920 serviceable 109s. That is the number of 109s on hand. There was 208 109s not capable of operations for one reason or another. It also shows that establishment strength was 212 a/c short.

 

[P-40K-5]

pardon me:

III./JG1 had 12 aircraft ready and 12 aircraft flown out of 18 a/c available.
III./JG11 had 31 aircraft ready and 31 aircraft flown out of 68 a/c available.

thats 43 aicraft scambled to intercept the heavies P-47s.

 

[Tante Ju]

Sorry you are right. I missed table. Indeed it was 712 serviceable 109s (out of 920) with 917 pilots to fly them at end of September.

 

[Milosh]

heres an example of the 'Blitz Week'. 100 P-47's escorting a group of bombers

'On the last day of Blitz Week (30 July) VIII Bomber Command targeted the Fieseler Works in Kassel. III./JG 11 and III./JG 1 were not scrambled until after the bombers crossed into Germany over Eifel. By the time they were in the air the bombers were near Emmerich am Rhein before they were intercepted. The Bf 109s were unexpectedly surprised by some 100 P-47 Thunderbolts escorts, newly equipped with drop tanks. III./JG 11 shot down two bombers but in the first major fighter combat of the Defense of the Reich lost two aircraft, with one pilot wounded and one dead.'

III./JG11 III./JG1 at that time had around 50 Bf109's ready. maybe 53. remarkable.

however no matter how good the LW pilots were, they were outnumbered, and thus, had a limited shelf life.

At the beginning of July, III./JG1 had 57 109Gs and at the end of July had 60 109Gs on hand.

At the beginning of July, III./JG11 had 40 Fw190As and ended the the month with the same number on hand.

 

[Milosh]

Sorry you are right. I missed table. Indeed it was 712 serviceable 109s (out of 920) with 917 pilots to fly them at end of September.

You still misread the table Tante Ju. Even though there was 917 pilots 'on hand' (present) there was only 676 pilots 'serviceable' (ready).

 

[Tante Ju]

No, I do not. Do you know what "Einsatzbereit" means? What is German definition for this? I think no... This is what translated "ready". So there were 917 pilots who could fly planes, for 920 planes, but of that servicable was 712 planes, other were under repair etc.

 

[Milosh]

917 - 676 = 241

So what were the other 241 pilots doing?

Est. Pres. Ready (Establishment Present Ready) is what the table says.

So lets look at the first unit in the table, I./JG2

Establishment 39
Present 39
Ready 33

There was only 33 of the 39 were able to fly. The 6 that were not able to fly could have been on leave or sick.

 

[Njaco]

Tante Ju,

you can't win my friend. you can post documented facts all day about Luftwaffe strengths in the west, ie: outnumbered, and some just won't
believe it. what some don't realize is that most of the a/c were based in the east.

Since Bill brought it up, here are the numbers from Dr. Price's "Luftwaffe Data Book".

These are TOTAL aircraft in theatre, not just fighters which includes, transports, recon, etc. Dr. Price got his numbers from the Quatermaster reports.

JULY 1942
Luftflotte 1 - Eastern Front
Total vs Servicable
392 - 265

Luftflotte 2 - Meditteranean
927 - 463

Luftflotte 3 - Western Front
558 - 416

Luftflotte 4 - Eastern Front
1803 - 980

Luftwaffenkommando Ost - Eastern Front
604 - 392

Luftflotte 5 Eastern Front / Western FRont
396 - 307

Luftwaffenbefehlshaber Mitte - Germany
1000 - 656

MAY 1943
Luftflotte 1 - Eastern Front
414 - 342

Luftflotte 2 -Med
1105 - 572

Luftflotte 3 - Western Front
685 - 541

Luftflotte 4 - Eastern Front
1257 - 829

Luftflotte 5 Eastern Front / Western FRont
373 - 288

Luftflotte 6 - Eastern Front
708 - 498

Luftwaffenkommando Sud Ost - Eastern / Meditteranean Fronts
163 - 141

Luftwaffenbefehlshaber Mitte - Germany
2432 - 1457 ( WOW!!)

MAY 1944
Luftflotte 1 - Eastern Front
415 - 347

Luftflotte 2 - Med
348 - 227

Luftflotte 3 - Western Front
1079 - 597

Luftflotte 4 - Eastern Front
1060 - 805

Luftflotte 5 Eastern Front / Western FRont
294 - 262

Luftflotte 6 - Eastern Front
917 - 706

Luftflotte Reich - Germany
2374 - 1306

Luftwaffenkommando Sud Ost - Eastern / Meditteranean Fronts
353 - 284

books would be "Gunther Rall's: A memoir", although a bit later, but gives a excellent overview of the Luftwaffe, "Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope", anything by said/written by "Adolf Galland", especially his arguments with the FATMAN Hitler.

Those are the numbers I have and Bill references. I don't like to google. I have the books. Now could you please post the numbers that Galland and Rall posted in their books?

 

[drgondog]

Did all 265 German fighter attack same time? I very heavy doubt they would that skillfull... very difficult to achieve. Planes take off different base, different time, they do not arrive at same time, even difficult to make them meet and join in one point.

No - good question - answer - neither all 250+ german fighters attacked at one time at one place. I believe I gave a timeline of 1 1/2 hours for the main battle - which was in fact a series of skirmishes. Now take it a step further, given a series of small skirmishes, what is the probability didtribution that the available escort defense outnumbered the attacking force of LW fighters? And I will give you one more piece of info. The 358FS/355th FG --- 1/6 of the 89 fighters available to the 8th AF in this battle - never engaged because they stayed with the lead box throughout the battle.

Mustangs were concentrated on the other hand.. this is advantage, even if smaller force.. you take great effort to emphasize: only 8 Mustangs or four attack at one time. You are right of course, because it is important detail. But at same time, it seems you assume the German arrived in big single blob of 250+ fighter.. or at least do not give details much. I am sorry if I misunderstood, but it reads so.

The Mustangs were NOT concentrated. The 355th arrived at the R/V point N. Augsburg at 1315. The 357th, assigned to the trailing boxes of the 1st TF arrived at 1322... about 7-10 miles behind the 355th. The 355th deployed the 357th FS first (10 Mustangs after early returns against Strurmstaffel 1 (12 Fw 190's plus Stab I and elements of I./JG3 as high cover.

You did not give date so I guess first half 1944. Februar? So I have to look up bases more difficult.

April 24, 1944 when there were 3 P-38 Groups plus 4 P-51 Groups available for target escort from Freidrichshafen to Gablingen to Munich targets for 3rd BD, 2nd BD and 1st BD respectively. The best P-47 Group, the 56th, turned back at Stuttgart.

I/JG 3 likely near Magdeburg, in Sachsen-Anhalt
II/JG 3 in Northern German, in triangle of Berlin-Hamburg-Lübeck
III / JG 3, Bavaria.. West of München.
IV / JG either North German like II Gruppe or Western German border (Venlo)
III/JG 26 was in Belgium.
I/JG 27 in Austria, Wagram.
IV/JG 27 in West Hungary or Zagreb/Balkans I believe..
I./JG 301 in Bavaria, near Münich...
I/JG 5 a little more North more, near Nürnberg.

III/ ZG 26 near Hannover

That's where they took off. These are bases of units, hundreds of kilometers away.

I have the complete Order of Battle based on the losses from Regensburg to the Austrian Border to the Swiss/German border to west Munich - those are the units/pilots identified and the locations of the crashes
Are you saying Bf 109G from Belgium, Austria, Balkans, Bavaria from München and Nürnberg, Magdeburg etc., all managed to converge and attack at same time 89 Mustangs? Sorry, I so much unbelieve that there is not words.. if true the Germans were masters of air defence coordination. Far better than British who could not do same in 1940 with much more closer space and airfields where fighters were stations.. at best, 2-3 Squadrons in Big Wings. 250 attack at same time? Never..

Do your own research - I have engaged Prien, Caldwell, Mueller, Lorant and many others. If you have definitive research to contrdict I will cheerfully listen. Other than that your belief system is just that - belief without facts

BTW all unit of them Bf 109G. And people all say how poor range was, and how limiting factor was in defence operation.. above example operation shows how false. 109G can Belgium, Austria, Balkans, Bavaria from München and Nürnberg if you example is true.

Specifically G-5, G-6, G6/U4 and 190A-8 for the single engine.

So please never never never again like hear this board claim again about how short range was disadvantage for 109G.. this is also example of people ask for in last discussion, parsifal, shortrund and I think, Juha. Here is example for them.. so I think myth really rested now. You also.

You do not have relevance in this discussion until you can reproduce the facts and sources to contardict what I have presented to you. When you finish bloviating I will point you to the original article I have published - and if I feel you are worthy of any more attention I will post the list on this board. But first YOU dig up your fact base on the loss list for the LW in that area and we'll compare notes?


Did all 250 fighter attack once? Or in groups of 10, 30, 50 etc. against 89 Mustangs? Because if they attack in piece - "over 250 fighters in the same volumes of air for which there only 89 Mustangs" is great misleading. Especiallyas one German Gruppe come from Belgium, and another take off to intercept from Hungary... while Mustangs are all there all the time.

There were no units from Belgium - if you think you are referring to III./JG26 you are woefully mis-informed. They deployed to Munich area April 16, 1944. How long they remained after April 24 I do not know.



Okay. I tell. Please comment on US made graph. Tell no overwhelming numbers... perhaps not local.. not all time.. but general, in most case, it is true.

View attachment 173083

When I feel like you have enough credibility to debate with me on this topic I will devote more time on your 'requests'. In the interim do your Homework!!

 

[Njaco]

The Bf 109s were unexpectedly surprised by some 100 P-47 Thunderbolts escorts, newly equipped with drop tanks. III./JG 11 shot down two bombers but in the first major fighter combat of the Defense of the Reich lost two aircraft, with one pilot wounded and one dead.

III./JG1 had 12 aircraft ready and 12 aircraft flown out of 18 a/c available.
III./JG11 had 31 aircraft ready and 31 aircraft flown out of 68 a/c available.

thats 43 aicraft scambled to intercept the heavies P-47s.

43 LW a/c against 100 P-47s. 2 Allied bombers lost and only 2 LW fighters lost.

and who had air superiority?

 

[drgondog]

heres an example of the 'Blitz Week'. 100 P-47's escorting a group of bombers

'On the last day of Blitz Week (30 July) VIII Bomber Command targeted the Fieseler Works in Kassel. III./JG 11 and III./JG 1 were not scrambled until after the bombers crossed into Germany over Eifel. By the time they were in the air the bombers were near Emmerich am Rhein before they were intercepted. The Bf 109s were unexpectedly surprised by some 100 P-47 Thunderbolts escorts, newly equipped with drop tanks. III./JG 11 shot down two bombers but in the first major fighter combat of the Defense of the Reich lost two aircraft, with one pilot wounded and one dead.'

You do know that on July 30, 1944 that the 8th AF only claimed 3 Me109s destroyed in the air near Paris (357FG P-51s)??

III./JG11 III./JG1 at that time had around 50 Bf109's ready. maybe 53. remarkable.

however no matter how good the LW pilots were, they were outnumbered, and thus, had a limited shelf life.

If you didn't know that Blitz week was 20-25 February 1944, and that one P-47 Group had two big days in that interval? The 56th FG P-47s shot down ~ 9 t/e (110, 217, 88 ) plus 3 109s on Feb 20 west of hannover, and 12 Me 109s from Zuider Zee to Munster on the 21st and 8 Fw 190s on the 24th from W/Kassel to w/Hannover to Quackenbruck to Minden.. The ones near Kassel were close to Geissen ne of Frankfurt.

So one Group of ~ 48 P-47s were to '100' Thunderbolts near Kassel?

In the same period the 357th FG and the 354th FG, the only operational Mustangs doing long range escorts were killing German pilots from Gotha to Erfurt to Magdeburg to Oschersleben to Halbertstadt to Brunswick.

Get your facts straight - avoid internet Google searches - crap in -----> crap out

 

[parsifal]

It doesnt surprise me that the LW had difficulties in concentrating, or that in detail the USAAC was able at times to achieve superior concentration of force. LW had a number of issues to contend with....its radar detection systems were being downgraded by window, and other measures, it had a wide arc of territory to defend, by the latter part of Jan-May it was running out of pilots and fuel, and spares, and a whole range of other difficulties. We could draw some similarities (and differences) to the british situation in 1940 I might add.

But these issues are part of the battle, i would submit. They are the manouverings that makes comparisons of raw numbers somewhat arbitrary. Ther will be occasions when the germans achieve superiority of numbers, others when they wont. But they certainly wont if they dont have the numbers in the first place. And here lies the question that we have to turn our minds to....in terms of raw numbers available, did the defending fighters have more available than the USAAC could put fighters over the target? from there ther are numerous supplementary questions like, were there other factors that conspired to reduce that raw total for the germans and make it hard for them to achieve the necessary concentrations?

My opinion is that the Germans did outnumber the US 8FC in terms of available numbers, but by various tactical advantages the Americans were able to achieve better concentrations most of the time at the critical points of contact. So perhaps there are elements of truth in both arguments......something none of us had considered perhaps.....

 

[Shortround6]

One thing to consider is that the American fighters may have had to engage several German fighter groups. Dragondog certainly knows better than I and several other members of this forum have detailed accounts of the some of the German units. but did some of those American fighters have to engage one group of German fighters and then another 20 minutes later and perhaps a 3rd group even later? All after dropping tanks at the first combat and not being able to re-arm guns?

 

[parsifal]

I wonder if the escort ever received radar assistance from Britain? Were they forewarned of enemy interceptions imminent, or were they on their own???

To what extent did radar, and ECM affect the performance of both sides in the battle????

 

[fastmongrel]

How where the US escort squadrons controlled was there a senior officer in a bomber or a fighter who called in the escorts or was it just down to any pilot to shout for assistance.