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I am very cool, dear Micdrow, no worry.. even if wheater is very hot.. not insulted at all! Just say, sorry sometime, I cannot say right the things..
There are 920 fighter plane (109 type) servicable, 917 pilots to fly them.. what about it?
heres an example of the 'Blitz Week'. 100 P-47's escorting a group of bombers
'On the last day of Blitz Week (30 July) VIII Bomber Command targeted the Fieseler Works in Kassel. III./JG 11 and III./JG 1 were not scrambled until after the bombers crossed into Germany over Eifel. By the time they were in the air the bombers were near Emmerich am Rhein before they were intercepted. The Bf 109s were unexpectedly surprised by some 100 P-47 Thunderbolts escorts, newly equipped with drop tanks. III./JG 11 shot down two bombers but in the first major fighter combat of the Defense of the Reich lost two aircraft, with one pilot wounded and one dead.'
III./JG11 III./JG1 at that time had around 50 Bf109's ready. maybe 53. remarkable.
however no matter how good the LW pilots were, they were outnumbered, and thus, had a limited shelf life.
Sorry you are right. I missed table. Indeed it was 712 serviceable 109s (out of 920) with 917 pilots to fly them at end of September.
Tante Ju,
you can't win my friend. you can post documented facts all day about Luftwaffe strengths in the west, ie: outnumbered, and some just won't
believe it. what some don't realize is that most of the a/c were based in the east.
books would be "Gunther Rall's: A memoir", although a bit later, but gives a excellent overview of the Luftwaffe, "Bodenplatte: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope", anything by said/written by "Adolf Galland", especially his arguments with the FATMAN Hitler.
Did all 265 German fighter attack same time? I very heavy doubt they would that skillfull... very difficult to achieve. Planes take off different base, different time, they do not arrive at same time, even difficult to make them meet and join in one point.
No - good question - answer - neither all 250+ german fighters attacked at one time at one place. I believe I gave a timeline of 1 1/2 hours for the main battle - which was in fact a series of skirmishes. Now take it a step further, given a series of small skirmishes, what is the probability didtribution that the available escort defense outnumbered the attacking force of LW fighters? And I will give you one more piece of info. The 358FS/355th FG --- 1/6 of the 89 fighters available to the 8th AF in this battle - never engaged because they stayed with the lead box throughout the battle.
Mustangs were concentrated on the other hand.. this is advantage, even if smaller force.. you take great effort to emphasize: only 8 Mustangs or four attack at one time. You are right of course, because it is important detail. But at same time, it seems you assume the German arrived in big single blob of 250+ fighter.. or at least do not give details much. I am sorry if I misunderstood, but it reads so.
The Mustangs were NOT concentrated. The 355th arrived at the R/V point N. Augsburg at 1315. The 357th, assigned to the trailing boxes of the 1st TF arrived at 1322... about 7-10 miles behind the 355th. The 355th deployed the 357th FS first (10 Mustangs after early returns against Strurmstaffel 1 (12 Fw 190's plus Stab I and elements of I./JG3 as high cover.
You did not give date so I guess first half 1944. Februar? So I have to look up bases more difficult.
April 24, 1944 when there were 3 P-38 Groups plus 4 P-51 Groups available for target escort from Freidrichshafen to Gablingen to Munich targets for 3rd BD, 2nd BD and 1st BD respectively. The best P-47 Group, the 56th, turned back at Stuttgart.
I/JG 3 likely near Magdeburg, in Sachsen-Anhalt
II/JG 3 in Northern German, in triangle of Berlin-Hamburg-Lübeck
III / JG 3, Bavaria.. West of München.
IV / JG either North German like II Gruppe or Western German border (Venlo)
III/JG 26 was in Belgium.
I/JG 27 in Austria, Wagram.
IV/JG 27 in West Hungary or Zagreb/Balkans I believe..
I./JG 301 in Bavaria, near Münich...
I/JG 5 a little more North more, near Nürnberg.
III/ ZG 26 near Hannover
That's where they took off. These are bases of units, hundreds of kilometers away.
I have the complete Order of Battle based on the losses from Regensburg to the Austrian Border to the Swiss/German border to west Munich - those are the units/pilots identified and the locations of the crashes
Are you saying Bf 109G from Belgium, Austria, Balkans, Bavaria from München and Nürnberg, Magdeburg etc., all managed to converge and attack at same time 89 Mustangs? Sorry, I so much unbelieve that there is not words.. if true the Germans were masters of air defence coordination. Far better than British who could not do same in 1940 with much more closer space and airfields where fighters were stations.. at best, 2-3 Squadrons in Big Wings. 250 attack at same time? Never..
Do your own research - I have engaged Prien, Caldwell, Mueller, Lorant and many others. If you have definitive research to contrdict I will cheerfully listen. Other than that your belief system is just that - belief without facts
BTW all unit of them Bf 109G. And people all say how poor range was, and how limiting factor was in defence operation.. above example operation shows how false. 109G can Belgium, Austria, Balkans, Bavaria from München and Nürnberg if you example is true.
Specifically G-5, G-6, G6/U4 and 190A-8 for the single engine.
So please never never never again like hear this board claim again about how short range was disadvantage for 109G.. this is also example of people ask for in last discussion, parsifal, shortrund and I think, Juha. Here is example for them.. so I think myth really rested now. You also.
You do not have relevance in this discussion until you can reproduce the facts and sources to contardict what I have presented to you. When you finish bloviating I will point you to the original article I have published - and if I feel you are worthy of any more attention I will post the list on this board. But first YOU dig up your fact base on the loss list for the LW in that area and we'll compare notes?
Did all 250 fighter attack once? Or in groups of 10, 30, 50 etc. against 89 Mustangs? Because if they attack in piece - "over 250 fighters in the same volumes of air for which there only 89 Mustangs" is great misleading. Especiallyas one German Gruppe come from Belgium, and another take off to intercept from Hungary... while Mustangs are all there all the time.
There were no units from Belgium - if you think you are referring to III./JG26 you are woefully mis-informed. They deployed to Munich area April 16, 1944. How long they remained after April 24 I do not know.
Okay. I tell. Please comment on US made graph. Tell no overwhelming numbers... perhaps not local.. not all time.. but general, in most case, it is true.
View attachment 173083
The Bf 109s were unexpectedly surprised by some 100 P-47 Thunderbolts escorts, newly equipped with drop tanks. III./JG 11 shot down two bombers but in the first major fighter combat of the Defense of the Reich lost two aircraft, with one pilot wounded and one dead.
III./JG1 had 12 aircraft ready and 12 aircraft flown out of 18 a/c available.
III./JG11 had 31 aircraft ready and 31 aircraft flown out of 68 a/c available.
thats 43 aicraft scambled to intercept the heavies P-47s.
heres an example of the 'Blitz Week'. 100 P-47's escorting a group of bombers
'On the last day of Blitz Week (30 July) VIII Bomber Command targeted the Fieseler Works in Kassel. III./JG 11 and III./JG 1 were not scrambled until after the bombers crossed into Germany over Eifel. By the time they were in the air the bombers were near Emmerich am Rhein before they were intercepted. The Bf 109s were unexpectedly surprised by some 100 P-47 Thunderbolts escorts, newly equipped with drop tanks. III./JG 11 shot down two bombers but in the first major fighter combat of the Defense of the Reich lost two aircraft, with one pilot wounded and one dead.'
You do know that on July 30, 1944 that the 8th AF only claimed 3 Me109s destroyed in the air near Paris (357FG P-51s)??
III./JG11 III./JG1 at that time had around 50 Bf109's ready. maybe 53. remarkable.
however no matter how good the LW pilots were, they were outnumbered, and thus, had a limited shelf life.