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ahhh the BoB. no idea, were they? I do know, being on an Island, with advance warning radar costal patrols
and with the LW fighters have very limited time on fuel: advantage RAF.
Tante
The average loss ratio for all bomber command in 1941 on daylight raids was 6.5% (from the Bomber Command Stats). As has been pointed out correctly those are all BC raids wherever they went and a lot were unescorted to Germany in small numbers.
For no 2 Group there is no doubt that 4,900 sorties were made over N Europe and losses were:-
95 - Flak
39 - Fighters
16 - Battle accidents
61 - Unknown
Loss ratio approx 4.3%
Details from No 2 Group page 470
Now however you slice the cake or want to comment, there is no doubt that fighters were not the major risk, flak was. One of the major tasks for No 2 Group was anti ship strikes, always a dangerous job for any airforce, it was called Project Channel Stop. If you want a good book on the subject read the book of the same name. Flak was deadly, fighters hardly get a mention.
The basic truths were:-
a) Flak was the major threat
b) The RAF chose when and where to attack, they dictated the action and had control of the air
c) Unescorted raids beyond the Channel Coast paid a heavy price.
Tell me jim and P-40K, was the RAF outnumbered by the Lw during the BoB?
American Industrial might made sure of that. but he'll continue calling me full of crap, and slap the face of Galland,
Rall, Petzschler, and most others for even sugesting it. becouse I'm directly quoting from them, and he calls me a liar,
ergo, they are all liars.
bite me... done... bye.
From what I've gleaned from reading is many times that aircraft that returned from a mission damaged were struck of charge as unrepairable but were not added to losses for a mission .
You seem to miss the point entirely. If you overtake the Ferrari by 48 km/hr you will close fast and leave fast just as the Mustang will do over most of the Bf. This is a big advantage in combat and why speed is life. Acceleration is important too, but in regards to weight/power, there is not near as much of an advantage for the Bf over the Mustang as your motorbike has over the Ferrari.Mr davparir
I dont have to imagine cars passing by me. In my mildly modifeid 2004 FZS 1000 (FZ1 in America) of 285 km/h top speed no car passes me . Not even Ferraris 455 of 300+ km/h . Why? Because the greater accelaration of the bike ends the duel before the top speeds are reached. Of couse if the Ferrari surprise me, with a speed advantage then things are difficult.
Why do you bring this up? Do you think the P-51 boosted to 75" is over boosted? As the provided documents showed, it is very apparent that the USAAF, and possible RAF, evaluated this and determined it was within the acceptable performance criteria for their safety and maintainability requirements and approved its operation. It is also apparent that the pilots used this effectively. I see no evidence, nor do you provide any evidence, that this is over boosting the Merlin. This seems to be a random unsupported statement.During the search for the modification of my bikes internal combustion engine i saw again that is easy to overboost an engine. It s easy to produce numbers . What is difficult is to improve the engine in a useful way.
Out of curiosity is there any mention of the Part XV Squadrons. Part XV Squadrons were those Squadrons made up of Commonwealth crews . The RCAF in particular the RAAF and RNZAF wanted Squadrons manned solely by crews of like nationalities with any excess allowed to be used by RAF .The Bomber Command War Diaries by Martin Middlebrook and Chris Everitt. Second Hand copies can be bought on Amazon.
Every day of the war is looked at giving the number of bombers sent out their type and the losses. Often they compare the claims with the official German records for the towns so you often get a fair idea as to the damage caused and there are about 80 pages of statistics.
very small example, this is only for Jg 11. let alone every other Staffel in any particular unit in the Western Front. can go on and on for miles about how during the whole of 1944 that the Luftwaffe was severely outnumbered ~
January 5th, 1944:
245 heavies escorted by 70 P-38 and 41 P-51 to strike at Kiel
Stab and II./JG 11 attacked. downed three B-24 and nine P-38. no loss of their own.
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): An Eighth Air Force report
concludes that the US daylight strategic bombing program against Germany will
be threatened unless steps are taken to reduce the enemy's fighter force,
which has increased in strength in the W as a result of step-up in
production, strengthening of firepower, and transfer of a larger percentage
of fighters to the Western Front.
Mission 176: Four targets are hit costing 24 bombers and 12 fighters.
1. 119 of 131 B-17's and 96 of 114 B-24's hit the shipyard and industrial area at Kiel, Germany plus 10 aircraft hit targets of opportunity; they claim 41-6-13 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17's and 5 B-24's are lost, 3 B-17's and 1 B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 61 B-17's and 15 B-24's are damaged; casualties are 36 KIA, 5 WIA and 100 MIA. This mission is escorted by 70 P-38's and 41 Ninth Air Force P-51's; they claim 22-1-8 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 P-38's are lost; casualties are 7 MIA.
2. 112 of 117 B-17's hit the Bordeaux/Merignac Airfield in France; they claim 50-10-9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 11 B-17's are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 49 damaged; casualties are 11 KIA, 21 WIA and 110 MIA. This mission is escorted by 76 P-47's; they claim 2-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-47's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; casualties are 5 MIA.
3. 78 of 79 B-17's hit the Tours Airfield in France; they claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 B-17 is lost and 10 damaged; casualties are 10 MIA. This mission is escorted by 149 P-47's; they claim 3-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; no casualties.
4. 73 of 78 hit targets of opportunity at Neuss, Geilenkirchen, Dusseldorf and Wassenburg, Germany; they claim 2-5-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-17's are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 22 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 20 MIA.
February 3rd, 1944:
724 heavies covered by 632 fighters were dispatched to Emden and Wilhelmshaven.
formation attacked by III./JG 11. Engaged and out numbered by P-47 and despite their
efforts, did not get through to the heavies. downed three P-47 while losing three.
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 208: 589 B-17s and 159
B-24s are dispatched to attack industry and railroad yards at Frankfurt/
Main, Germany; 346 B-17s and 27 B-24s hit the target; due to weather and
navigational problems, 122 B-17s hit Giessen, 51 B-17s hit Wiesbaden, 17
B-24s hit the Trier area, 15 B-24s hit the Arloff area, 2 B-24s hit the
Russelheim area, 1 B-24 hits Grafenhausen, 1 B-24 hits Darmstadt, 1 B-17 and
1 B-24 hit Koblenz and 26 B-24s and 23 B-17s hit unknown targets; they
claim 4-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 18 B-17s and 2 B-24s are lost, 2 B-17s and
1 B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 359 aircraft are damaged; casualties are
7 KIA, 20 WIA and 203 MIA. Escort is provided by 56 P-38s, 537 Eighth and
Ninth Air Force P-47s and 44 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 8-0-4
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost, 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 5
P-38s and 4 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 1 MIA.
February 10th, 1944:
169 heavies screened by 466 fighters. II./JG 11 took off from airfield at Wunsdorf.
downed two B-17. losing seven of their own. later III.JG 11 intercepted same formation.
killed eleven aircraft and lost six. estimates were that the Germans were ounumbered
20:1*.
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 216: 141 of 169 B-17s hit
the industrial area at Brunswick, Germany and 2 hit targets of opportunity;
they claim 42-30-61 Luftwaffe aircraft; 29 B-17s are lost, 1 is damaged
beyond repair and 52 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 3 WIA and 295 MIA; escort
is provided by 64 P-38s, 357 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 45 Ninth
Air Force P-51s; they claim 56-1-40 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 0-0-2
on the ground; 5 P-38s and 4 P-47s are lost, 1 P-38 and 1 P-51 are damaged
beyond repair and 6 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 1 WIA and 9
MIA. 27 of 81 B-24s hit the Gilze-Rijen Airfield, The Netherlands; dense
contrails and frost prevent most aircraft from attacking; 4 B-24s are
damaged beyond repair; casualties are 26 KIA and 14 WIA; escort is provided
by 91 P-47s without loss.
February 11th, 1944:
223 heavies covered by 606 fighters bombed frankfurt. II./JG 11 intercepted.
in ferocious combat downed three fighters. lost 3 Bf109's. at 12:33pm I./JG 11 intercepted
same formation. downed one B-17. lost two aircraft.
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 218: 94 of 201 B-24s bomb
the Siracourt V-weapon site in France with PFF equipment; the remaining
aircraft were assigned individual targets without PFF and were unable to
locate their targets; 1 B-24 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 17 damaged;
casualties are 1 KIA, 1 WIA and 10 MIA; escort is provided by 85 Eighth and
Ninth Air Force P-47's and 41 P-51s without loss. The primary target for 223
B-17s is the marshalling yard at Frankfurt, Germany; 157 hit the primary, 32
hit Ludwigshafen, 19 hit Saarbrucken and 4 hit other targets of opportunity;
they claim 3-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond
repair and 124 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 26 WIA and 51 MIA; escort is
provided by 82 P-38s, 486 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47's and 38 Ninth Air
Force P-51s; they claim 30-2-28 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 2-1-4 on
the ground; 8 P-38s, 4 P-47's and 2 P-51s are lost, 2 P-47's and 1 P-51 are
damaged beyond repair and 2 P-38s and 4 P-47's are damaged; casualties are
14 MIA.
February 20th, 1944:
1000 heavies and 835 fighters were dispatched into Germany. heavies were intercepted by JG 11
pilots. Only six 3./JG 11 machines attacked the arriving armada. downed two heavies and
lost five of their own. the remaining a/c of the unit were refuled and were airborne again at
12:45pm. 10 heavies downed, no loss of their own.
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 226: The Eighth Air Force
begins "Big Week," attacks on German aircraft plants and airfields. For the
first time, over 1,000 bombers are dispatched; 21 bombers and 4 fighters
are lost hitting 3 areas in Germany, i.e.:
1. 417 B-17s are dispatched to Leipzig/Mockau Airfield, and aviation
industry targets at Heiterblick and Abnaundorf; 239 hit the primary targets,
37 hit Bernburg, 44 hit Oschersleben and 20 hit other targets of opportunity;
they claim 14-5-6 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond
repair and 161 damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 17 WIA and 72 MIA.
2. 314 B-17s are dispatched to the Tutow Airfield; 105 hit the primary and
immediate area, 76 hit Rostock and 115 hit other targets of opportunity; they
claim 15-15-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair
and 37 damaged; casualties are 3 KIA and 60 MIA.
3. 272 B-24s are dispatched to aviation industry targets at Brunswick,
Wilhelmtor and Neupetritor; 76 hit the primary, 87 hit Gotha, 13 hit
Oschersleben, 58 hit Helmstedt and 10 hit other targets of opportunity; they
claim 36-13-13 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair
and 37 damaged; casualties are 10 KIA, 10 WIA and 77 MIA.
Missions 1 and 3 above are escorted by 94 P-38s, 668 Eighth and Ninth Air
Force P-47s and 73 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 61-7-37
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38, 2 P-47s and 1 P-51 is lost, 2 P-47s are damaged
beyond repair and 4 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 4 MIA.
moral of the story here is that once hundreds of escorting fighters for the heavies were deployed,
the LW losses started to mount. not becouse of susposed Allied superior aircraft, but becouse
the heavies were the #1 priority, and they had to fight there way through the fighters to get to the
heavies. the allied fighter escorts were at an extreme advantage.
I would post actual #'s availble to JG 11. but some insist on looking at the aircraft alloted #'s, which is vastly different.
*includes elements of JG1 Jg53.