"The case for the P-47 Thunderbolt being the greatest fighter of the Second World War "

Greg Boeser said:

An airborne battery of .50s is a bit more effective against tanks than a ground based one because turret roof and engine deck armor tended to be a lot thinner than hull and turret front and side armor.

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Against tanks they were a nuisance, they broke stuff, like radio antennas and glass vision blocks and the crews cooking pot/s and liberated wine bottles.
Against open topped vehicles (SP guns, at guns, half tracks, some armored cars etc) they were deadly.

Trouble with strafing tanks is you are coming in at a shallow angle.


If you hit the 10mm roof armor while diving at 30 degrees you get a 60 degree impact angle and the armor acts like it is 20-30mm thick (depends on projectile and exact quality of armor), the shallower the angle the hard it is to penetrate. The .50 was good but it wasn't that good.
Diving at 30 degrees or higher meant you had to shoot from further away or risk trying to dig a trench with the prop.

They had figured out in 1920s and 30s that they needed to prevent bullets (or grenades) from getting into the engine vents. No easy kills there.

pbehn said:

The RAF was and is first of all there for defence of the UK. It was also responsible for defence of USA assets in UK. It may be possible in hindsight to say that the UK was over protected, but to not have any air defence in 1943/44 could have been a massive mistake.

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Viz a viz 'Biggest mistake of war keeping Spit as interceptor when allies on offense', I 100% agree with pbehn. Given that from Overlord onwards, the allies had air superiority verging on air-supremacy as it was, an aircraft with narrow-tracked undercarriage was clearly not the most ideal aircraft to be lugging bombs around with (although spits did undertake ground attack).

As things were, I'm not aware that the allies were ever accused of having insufficient airpower in any key offensive category. Someone is also perhaps overlooking the beginning of the V1 offensive and the absolute justification for maintaining effective defence of UK airspace in the light of that....

SplitRz said:

Viz a viz 'Biggest mistake of war keeping Spit as interceptor when allies on offense', I 100% agree with pbehn. Given that from Overlord onwards, the allies had air superiority verging on air-supremacy as it was, an aircraft with narrow-tracked undercarriage was clearly not the most ideal aircraft to be lugging bombs around with (although spits did undertake ground attack).

As things were, I'm not aware that the allies were ever accused of having insufficient airpower in any key offensive category. Someone is also perhaps overlooking the beginning of the V1 offensive and the absolute justification for maintaining effective defence of UK airspace in the light of that....

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Ike and everyone elses nightmare before D-Day was that it would be exposed by photo recon, the need for top class air defence was never greater than in the weeks before and after D-Day. Once landing strips were established in Normandy, range was not so important, as on the eastern front.

An odd statement, considering Spitfires were escorting offensive missions over the continent already in 1941.

Greg Boeser said:

An odd statement, considering Spitfires were escorting offensive missions over the continent already in 1941.

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Indeed! Ramrods, Rhubarbs, Ramrods and Circuses - not to mention the Dieppe raid etc.

pbehn said:

Ike and everyone elses nightmare before D-Day was that it would be exposed by photo recon, the need for top class air defence was never greater than in the weeks before and after D-Day. Once landing strips were established in Normandy, range was not so important, as on the eastern front.

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Hey, were Spits deployed to point-defense in Normandy at any time? I could see them useful defending landing-beaches/quays or airfields. Did this happen to your knowledge?

Thumpalumpacus said:

Hey, were Spits deployed to point-defense in Normandy at any time? I could see them useful defending landing-beaches/quays or airfields. Did this happen to your knowledge?

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No idea, but they started building air strips within days of the landing. I found this How UK engineers dodged German snipers to build airstrips in France Which has some interesting pics, including a Spitfire. I wouldnt be surprised if they had standing patrols over the beach head, at the start.

From 5th to 7th June Spitfires were used in mostly ground attack missions as Luftwaffe opposition was minimal. During that time the Spitfire
squadrons in use numbered at a whopping 55.

Some Spitfires were also used as specialist spotters for naval gunfire. Not sure why unless it was the speed to cover target areas quickly
and report back ?

P pbehn , I appreciate you taking the time to look that up, but it's paywalled so I haven't read it. I knew airfield construction was a prime task in the weeks following the assault itself.

WARSPITER said:

Some Spitfires were also used as specialist spotters for naval gunfire. Not sure why unless it was the speed to cover target areas quickly and report back ?

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If memory serves, a USN observer squadron re-equipped with Spitfires (from OS-2Us) in order to spot fall of shot shortly before the invasion, in May. I'd have to look up squadron and numbers, but I'm sure that some USN spotters used Spits to range in USS Texas, Nevada, etc. It was a consideration of survivability so far as I recall.

Wow. Can you imagine the big ear-to-ear smiles on the faces of the USN pilots when told they were switching to Spitfires ?

SaparotRob said:

Wow. Can you imagine the big ear-to-ear smiles on the faces of the USN pilots when told they were switching to Spitfires ?

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That or brown trousers.
Instructor " Ok boys, tomorrow you are going to trade in your Kingfisher floatplanes and after sitting in the cockpit for an hour or two, sole in SPITFIRES"

Shortround6 said:

That or brown trousers.
Instructor " Ok boys, tomorrow you are going to trade in your Kingfisher floatplanes and after sitting in the cockpit for an hour or two, sole in SPITFIRES"

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"Right, you can ride a bicycle, now here's an Indy racer."

Thumpalumpacus said:

"Right, you can ride a bicycle, now here's a Harley.

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Fixed it.

SaparotRob said:

"Right, you can ride a bicycle, now here's a Norton Commando 850"

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Fixed it.

What was I thinking?

SaparotRob said:

What was I thinking?

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Right?

Now nice try but no.

See ....now i fixed it...Nobody will cut in my lane i tell you. Obscene gestures i will spray happily.
Great milage Berlin - Moscow in 1 tank.

I'll see that and raise you a bigger barrel.

WARSPITER said:

View attachment 717983

I'll see that and raise you a bigger barrel.

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Nice recoilless. But being it a Vespa and Italian well we know how fine that worked out an route to the Mare Nostrum. Not to mention the costs of hair products wich are madatory while "riding" this upscaled bycicle. Best thing about you will not get a traffic ticket for speeding. And you are always in front , not to say the head of, the traffic jam.

The Air Spotting Pool was based out of Lee on Solent for D-Day comprising Squadrons of No 3 Naval Fighter Wing, the RAF and the USN. These were

808 Seafire L.III and Spitfire LF.Vb
885 Seafire L.IIc and F/L.III
886 Seafire L.III
897 Spitfire L.Vb

RAF squadrons
26 & 63 with Spitfire V

USN squadron VOS-7 with Spitfire V

For D-Day itself they were joined by 3 RAF tactical recce squadrons
II(AC), 268 and the Canadian 414 flying the Mustang I/IA/II

By mid-afternoon the last 3 units reverted back to their normal TacR duties.

As for airfields one little known programme ahead of D-Day was the construction of 24 Advanced Landing Grounds by the RAF Airfield Construction Service in southern England from which 2nd TAF squadrons operated. Permanent facilities were kept to a minimum with runways of Sommerfield Track, Square Meshed Track or PSP. That provided good practice for what was to come.

On arrival on the continent Airfield construction began immediately, but not all strips were the same, often starting as one thing and then being developed further as time went on. So in order:-

Emergency Landing Strip - for pilots in distress rather than flying back across the Channel. Sometimes referred to as a "crash strip". Very basic strip at least 600 yards long. ELS-1 opened in the American sector on 7 June with B-1 in the British sector the same day.

Also on 7 June US Engineers unable to reach the site they were intended to develop, levelled a strip for casualty evacuation by C-47.

Refuelling & Rearming Strip - longer at 1,200 yards with marshalling areas at each end. Aircraft were not intended to stay overnight but return to their home bases in England. Helped increase the sortie rate over the beachhead. The first of these was B-3 which opened on 15 June followed by B-2 and A-3 in the US sector the next day and A-1 (originally intended as an ELS but capture was delayed) and A-2 on the 17th.

Advanced Landing Ground - as above but with dispersal facilities to allow units to base there on a rotating basis. ALG A-6 opened on the 17th June and B-4 and A-4 on the 18th.

Airfield - as above but units based permanently.

All-weather Airfield - as above but with hard surfaced runways for operations in all seasons and weathers.


By the end of June, 10 airfields (ELS, R&RS or ALG) had opened in the US sector and 11 in the British sector. But airfield construction slowed in July as the rate at which the beachhead expanded slowed, particularly on the eastern side. So in July 10 more opened in the US sector but only 3 in the British sector. In Aug, 20 opened in the US sector and 9 in the British sector. In the first 4 days of Sept 6 British, 3 US and one joint were added to the total.