The Cold War?

[michaelmaltby]

And Mr. Branson's Vigin just picked up another troubled "bank" (Northern Rock) from beleagured British taxpayers ... as we speak .

".... but, war? That'll never happen."

Is it war if a shot isn't fired and the "enemy" just walks in the front door?

MM

 

[nuuumannn]

This is fascinating stuff - another European war? I suspect all the political bluster in Europe is just finger pointing. This is, as most have indicated, an economic crisis (probably more appropriate than 'war'; if anyone understands the difference between the two, its continental Europeans) and will take a considerable amount of head scratching to rectify. Blame, if we feel it's necessary to do so is easily laid on the doorstep of 'immigrants', but I suspect mismanagement of local economies myself, as John has pointed out above. The weaker economies have leaned on the stronger ones since the creation of the EU and I suspect that with a few of these countries, even without the Euro, this slide into bankruptcy would have happened regardless.

Mike, I read that piece on Duranty; very interesting; I can't say I had heard of him, but nevertheless, the fact that few accepted that such brutality was going on rarely knew of the scale of it. Although Duranty himself might have 'admitted' to it in his analysis of what makes the Soviet Union tick, it is not uncommon for us to brush off such things because of a lack of acceptance that one could be so barbaric to one's own people, although Stalin was Georgian by birth (born Joseb Jugashvili), so misrepresentation is probably right in a sense, but that which the reporters covered from within the Soviet Union at the time was barely scratching the surface. The extent of the gulag network and the activities of the secret police were horrors that we in the west could not fathom occurring to us.

I once dated an East German girl, who was unaware that less than a mile from her apartment in an East Berlin suburb was an active Stasi detainment centre of torture originally established by the NKVD post-war (Hohenshoenhausen). An hour further north by train was the former Sachsenhausen concentration camp at Oranienburg, which, according to the memorial there today states that more people were killed there by the Soviets between 1945 and 1952 than when the Nazis ran it. (Heinkel at Oranienburg used to rely on local labour provided by inmates at Sachsenhausen; the Nazis' "model" concentration camp they showed the world's media at the time of the Berlin Olympics in 1936, to prove just how humane they were to their political prisoners!)

Have you guys heard what's intimidating the Chinese and Indonesians latey? Barack Obama wants to station Marines in Australia and Julia Gillard has approved of closer military relations between the two nations, so a bigger US presense in the Pacific, as Obama states; "Make no mistake; we're here to stay..."

He says that a lot doesn't he? "Make no mistake..."

 

[Readie]

And Mr. Branson's Vigin just picked up another troubled "bank" (Northern Rock) from beleagured British taxpayers ... as we speak .

".... but, war? That'll never happen."

Is it war if a shot isn't fired and the "enemy" just walks in the front door?

MM

Nothing is guaranteed I guess...I don't believe that the original EU member states would declare war on each other.
We are surrounded by our enemies so who knows who will walk in through the front door?

The 'War on Terror' isn't making us friends either but, that lot can take a flying **** as far as I'm concerned.

John

 

[Readie]

This is fascinating stuff - another European war? I suspect all the political bluster in Europe is just finger pointing. This is, as most have indicated, an economic crisis (probably more appropriate than 'war'; if anyone understands the difference between the two, its continental Europeans) and will take a considerable amount of head scratching to rectify. Blame, if we feel it's necessary to do so is easily laid on the doorstep of 'immigrants', but I suspect mismanagement of local economies myself, as John has pointed out above. The weaker economies have leaned on the stronger ones since the creation of the EU and I suspect that with a few of these countries, even without the Euro, this slide into bankruptcy would have happened regardless.


Have you guys heard what's intimidating the Chinese and Indonesians latey? Barack Obama wants to station Marines in Australia and Julia Gillard has approved of closer military relations between the two nations, so a bigger US presense in the Pacific, as Obama states; "Make no mistake; we're here to stay..."

He says that a lot doesn't he? "Make no mistake..."

I rather suspect that Frau Merkles remarks have been deliberately interpreted by the sensationalism press.
Her comment that European peace cannot guaranteed for the 50 years was just that...a comment. Who knows what the world will be like in 50 years anyway.

The Greeks should never have been allowed into the EU /EZ but, having got in they carried on as if their was no tomorrow spending on public services without bothering to collect the taxes every other man pays. A shambles waiting to happen and..oh, its the Germans fault. Yeah right. I hope the Germans stick to their guns on this issue.
The Italians...what can I say? A debt mountain only they could accrue.
The Irish. Spend, spend, spend and then wonder why it all goes horribly wrong.
The Spanish Portuguese are poor countries, basically a peasant culture at heart. Little to contribute to the coffers in Brussels.
The former soviet bloc countries also got into the EU. That was a given for purely political reasons. A buffer against aggression from the east and better 'in' than 'out'. They have brought a lot to the UK including an admirable work ethic that some of my countryman could do well to adopt.
The Germans. The economic powerhouse of the EU /EZ.. wisely making things that people actually want to buy.
The French. Dreamers of the Federal Europe for 60 years. What exactly they are up to at any given time is a mystery....
The British. We kept out of the EZ and have a fractured relationship with the EU. In our hearts we are an island race and not part of Europe despite all the fine speechs in the House of Parliament. ( mainly for consumption abroad I'll wager). The mistake we made was not joining after the Treaty of Rome, being a Jonnie come lately is never good and the other EU member states are quite right to question our commitment.

The Americans will not let China, North Korea or any other tin pot country threaten them. Maybe if 9/11 hadn't happened it may be different but, it did and I don't blame the USA for looking after itself. They alone have the global reach to achieve this.

John

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree John, however the Germans are at fault as much as anyone. The EU is destined to fail in my opinion. The ones who will be hurt however are the common people, because the Govt's of the perspective countries are not including them in the process.

There are troubled times ahead, not just for Europe, but for the global community.

Oh well, as a moderator I will step outside of these discussions because they are on the verge of political (Please forgive me, but I must because of my position). You all may carry on however, just don't let get out of hand (none of you have done so, but as all political discussions are, they can get out of control).

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... mismanagement of local economies".

Mismanagement of EXPECTATIONS. Like the shampoo commercial says , "I'm worth it". Sure, baby, sure.

"... Julia Gillard has approved of closer military relations between the two nations." Good thing. The USA cannot afford to weaken its position anywhere. Mind you, "afford" and pay for $$$ may not mean quite the same thing. [It is my understanding that Ms G. is quite sweet on President O].

Listen guys, I'm not advocating war in Europe or predicting it. Personally, I like Angela, and I don't blame the Germans for coming down hard on deadbeats. But Europeans have been so in love with themselves and their entitlements .... while Kosovo ... and ethnic cleansing went on in their presence .... that it makes a North American wonder. Why has Europe been so neglectful of its own security ...? The USA should NEVER have had to be the lead hand in the Balkins .... made no friends and got no thanks.

We, in Canada, have been just as guilty ... letting America pay for our defense in blood and treasure. That has started to change, thank The Lord, but (as my Mum use to say about Communism in Canada in the '30s) " ... it was a near thing, a close call."

Nations and people and governments that refuse to be responsible and accountable for their actions deserve whatever fate befalls them. I am a big fan of the Finns . They know how to play Canadian style hockey and to turn lemons into lemonade.

MM

 

[nuuumannn]

.

Yep on both counts. Didn't they look sweet together, all doe eyes and wide smiles, President O "Charmer"! "Make no mistake, Ms Gillard, you are the purdyest Aussie Prime Minister since Bob Hawke!"

 

[michaelmaltby]

And then, there's this:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdob6QRLRJU!

What did Churchill say about democracy ...

MM

 

[Readie]

Nigel Farage a man with no credibility here. I could be rude and say he is a complete and utter arse but, that would be unacceptable.

Another view...Why Europe needs enemies | Presseurop (English)

I have to admit that when I read articles about the EU I don't automatically include Britain in anything affects 'Europe'.
I'm not being clever or distrustfull of the EU its just my mind set.

The crisis and three Europes | Presseurop (English).

The 'multi speed' Europe is an interesting concept.

John

 

[Readie]

Oh well, as a moderator I will step outside of these discussions because they are on the verge of political (Please forgive me, but I must because of my position). You all may carry on however, just don't let get out of hand (none of you have done so, but as all political discussions are, they can get out of control).

That's a shame Chris. Your insight would be welcome in this discussion.
John

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That's a shame Chris. Your insight would be welcome in this discussion.
John

No, I can't sorry. We actually have a no politics policy on this website...

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... the Germans are at fault as much as anyone. The EU is destined to fail in my opinion. The ones who will be hurt however are the common people, because the Govt's of the perspective countries are not including them in the process. There are troubled times ahead, not just for Europe, but for the global community. "

Thanks for your insight, Chris . I agree with your view. Sorry to lose you to the referee's chair .

"... The 'multi speed' Europe is an interesting concept." It would be easier, I am told, for countries like Greece to step outside the EU but retain the Euro than vice vera.

I posted Nigel Farage because he is unknown in N. America and I was curious about his credibility. He certainly is rude, but (IMHO) he makes some valid points visa a vis the democratic process ... to whit, Italy and Greece building gov'ts of technocrats to deal with the fiscal crisis. How deep is the democratic process if people can not agree to their salvation. Is the EU democratic ... or administrative? Was the EU EVER meant to be "democratic" ...?

Great links, John.

MM

 

[Readie]

Is the EU democratic ... or administrative? Was the EU EVER meant to be "democratic" ...?
MM

Now that is a very good question.

EU democracy
http://www.fedtrust.co.uk/admin/uploads/FedT_LAD.pdf

Welcome to the European Parliament

I think the nub of our problem with the EU is that our sovereignty is entrenched in our national psychic and we struggle to surrender to the dictates of the EU Parliament on matters like the contents of the Great British banger.

John

 

[razor1uk]

I believe the EU is administrative in a democratic wrapper, believing itself above all its members; how can it make decisions for each member country without ignoring or loosing in translation the conflicting needs, the wishes of others and without being in a conflict of interest between them.

European war, or war anywhere else is always a prospect, and it always starts with economic warfare or reasons first....

I shouldn't say more as it would be too political and so unpolitically correct in a political way that hawks would accuse me of various -isms.

P.S. all the current tensions are increasing the rise of nationalism; this can be good to a point, but past a certain level it becomes bad, but as of yet (in the developing current situations around EU and European area), there's no clear guidline as to where the balance point between them is....

 

[nuuumannn]

I'm still not convinced about war in Europe, Razor1UK, although I agree with your comments about the EU. Post war Germany has been built on billions of dollars supplied to the Bundestag by the US government; there is also a sizeable US military presence in Germany, although it has been scaled down somewhat since the end of the cold war. I doubt the Americans would stand back and allow Europeans go at it hammer and tongs after their considerable investment in Europe's stability during the Cold War and after. I suspect the 'Special Relationship would come into a new phase if such a thing happened.

Oh, by the way, Bobbysocks, my comments in an earlier post were not to contradict yours, but to emphasise how subjective that relationship is. No bad karma intended.

I would also imagine that ordinary Europeans would not react too kindly to any declarations of hostility. Remember the public's reaction to Tony Blair's acceptance of Bush's request for help in the invasion of Iraq, in Britain and in France and Germany there were protests. I think most Europeans are quite aborrent of the prospect of war, even abroad. Let's hope it stays that way.

 

[razor1uk]

I think the Germans would be amongst the last of the Europeans to war - why assume when the phrase '..war in Europe..' being in a sentence from an Englishman means automatically 'Germany'...

Now there arent borders as such within EU, with emmergrants, immergrants and economic migrants - were more mixed up inter-mixed; diffusing nationalities, yet it stokes the need or kneejerk of 'locals' to become more nationalistic = a bad recipie imho of future hindsight - its like a hedged bet (50/50).

 

[nuuumannn]

why assume when the phrase '..war in Europe..' being in a sentence from an Englishman means automatically 'Germany'...

I would have thought that would have been rather obvious!

 

[razor1uk]

We've forght more against other 'now' EU countries than against Germany or what became Germany in ha last 700 years... its only stereotyping and the previous 2 big 'wars' that give that 'slant' - I don't think the last opponent will always be the next one.
Its more likely to be many localised mini civil wars as mixing populations sort out there differences of cultures, historical truths lies, economic educational cultures etc, than a full on military vs. millitary...

 

[nuuumannn]

We've forght more against other 'now' EU countries than against Germany or what became Germany in ha last 700 years... its only stereotyping and the previous 2 big 'wars' that give that 'slant' - I don't think the last opponent will always be the next one.
Its more likely to be many localised mini civil wars as mixing populations sort out there differences of cultures, historical truths lies, economic educational cultures etc, than a full on military vs. millitary...

very true, Razor1UK. I reckon we'll probably see more riots and unrest of the civilian populations of poorer countries as the economic crunch rolls on and governments bungle attempts at making cut backs by taxing the ordinary citizens. Like the riots in the UK this year, people won't take their governments' incompetence for too long.

Oh, I hope you don't take my quip about the Germans too seriously No bad karma intended.

 

[Readie]

I would also imagine that ordinary Europeans would not react too kindly to any declarations of hostility. Remember the public's reaction to Tony Blair's acceptance of Bush's request for help in the invasion of Iraq, in Britain and in France and Germany there were protests. I think most Europeans are quite aborrent of the prospect of war, even abroad. Let's hope it stays that way.

I'll pick up on a point here, Mr Blair did the unforgiveable thing of lying to us about the true nature of Iraq's WoMD. Its not that the British are averse to a fight...part of me thinks that we almost need too.
Anyway. the USA had its own reasons for taking on Iraq and we would have joined in as we are allies and share the US outrage at 9/11. But, war on the basis of lies (half truths if you like) is never good and diminishs us all.

Your quip about 'European war' and 'Germany' being synonymous is not that far from the truth. The tabloid press is responsible for keeping that thought going in peoples mind. The local paper in Plymouth is priceless. If you can get to page 3 without the Blitz being mentioned and how beautifull Plymouth was before 'they' flattened it all in 1941 you are lucky. I'm fed up with reading the same old same old but, a lot of people aren't...

The tabloid press is dire and able to whip up certain sections of society into a frenzy. When the Falklands were invaded the tabloids made it sound like WW3 and young men were clamouring to join up and have a fight....shades of 1914? maybe. Do we learn ? nope.

The main question in my mind is why would we want to have another war in Europe and what possible good would come out. There is no enemy to defeat, no evil regime to conquer and we have everything to lose.
If we get to the stage of Europe having to defend itself against an aggressor that is another matter. We (the royal 'we') have to stand up and do whatever we need to do. British, French, Germans, Dutch...all of us stand to lose all we have if we are weak at the 11th hour.

John