Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
The Russians are tightening their hold on European balls with oil and gas supplies.
Big mistake letting those lunatics get into this position of power over us...
John
The Cold War?
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The Russians are tightening their hold on European balls with oil and gas supplies.
Big mistake letting those lunatics get into this position of power over us...
John
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
haha...i didnt say it was a match made in heaven and they lived happily ever after! every body is going to try to feather their own nest first. and like you said the US was jealous of the brits because they had built a very good and efficient intelligence agency. knowledge is power and on a grand scale when it comes to nations and political intrigue. but its like...yeah, i can smack my brother but you better not!! but when push comes to shove we will be sitting on the same side...
I honestly don't see any indication of it ever going that far again. At least not in the near future and at least not in with the Western European nations fighting against each other. If anything the threat will come from the east again.
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
'Europe' is a big place these days Chris. The 'north - south' divide is very real and volatile nations will only take so much.
if a nation is bankrupted, humiliated and forced into austerity measures that span a decade or more do you think those folks will just sit and take it?
I know that you are not concerned but, I sure as hell am !
John
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I don't know what the dividing line between Eastern and Western Europe but it wasn't all that long ago the Balkan Countries were doing a number on each other
Glider
Captain
I believe there is another reason why Russia will not attack anyone including Europe and that is demographics. Russia is a huge country with a small and falling population. Current population is about 143 million, the UK alone is approx 62 million, Germany 82 million, France 65 million. So 143 million is a lot less than Europe and a fraction of China.
Current estimates are that the population will fall to approx 111 million by 2050. With a population of this level given the size of the country they will do well to maintain the country and its infrastructure, let alone grow the economy to maintain a large modern army anything close to to the size that has existed before.
If there is a danger it is in the far east where China has a massive population and is running out of space and resources while Russia has the space, resources and will lack the population in the right place. The trend in technology is closing fast as well, China has improved leaps an bounds and Russia is losing the edge. Remember that a high proportion of your electronic goods are built in China, not Russia.
Current estimates are that the population will fall to approx 111 million by 2050. With a population of this level given the size of the country they will do well to maintain the country and its infrastructure, let alone grow the economy to maintain a large modern army anything close to to the size that has existed before.
If there is a danger it is in the far east where China has a massive population and is running out of space and resources while Russia has the space, resources and will lack the population in the right place. The trend in technology is closing fast as well, China has improved leaps an bounds and Russia is losing the edge. Remember that a high proportion of your electronic goods are built in China, not Russia.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
.... "Germany and the U.K. are on a collision course," Jan Techau, director of the Brussels-based European center of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said in a phone interview. "The clashes we see now about deepening ties in the EU have always been there, but the crisis makes them more visible. Now it's crunch time.
"But despite the protests from Whitehall, the Germans were having none of it. Volker Kauder, the parliamentary leader of the Christian Democratic Union, said in a speech to the party congress in Leipzig that "Britain also carries responsibility for making Europe a success. Only being after their own benefit and refusing to contribute is not the message we're letting the British get away with." Bloomberg quotes a source who say that Britain and France are on a collision course and the onlookers are holding their collective breaths. Cameron is headed to Berlin on Friday to see if he can come to an agreement with Merkel. …
Speaking in London last night, Cameron laid out his opposition to German ideas, hours after Merkel had told the CDU conference that it's time to push for closer political ties and tighter budget rules.
"We should look skeptically at grand plans and utopian visions; we've a right to ask what the European Union should and shouldn't do," Cameron said. Europe should be "outward- looking, with its eyes to the world, not gazing inwards" and should have "the flexibility of a network, not the rigidity of a bloc," he said….
"In all the figures that we bandy around about the financial-transactions tax, it is worth bearing in mind the fact that around 80 percent of it would be raised from businesses in the United Kingdom," Cameron told the House of Commons Nov. 7. "I am sometimes tempted to ask the French whether they would like a cheese tax."
The war is now economic ... but the consequences are every bit as real.
MM
"But despite the protests from Whitehall, the Germans were having none of it. Volker Kauder, the parliamentary leader of the Christian Democratic Union, said in a speech to the party congress in Leipzig that "Britain also carries responsibility for making Europe a success. Only being after their own benefit and refusing to contribute is not the message we're letting the British get away with." Bloomberg quotes a source who say that Britain and France are on a collision course and the onlookers are holding their collective breaths. Cameron is headed to Berlin on Friday to see if he can come to an agreement with Merkel. …
Speaking in London last night, Cameron laid out his opposition to German ideas, hours after Merkel had told the CDU conference that it's time to push for closer political ties and tighter budget rules.
"We should look skeptically at grand plans and utopian visions; we've a right to ask what the European Union should and shouldn't do," Cameron said. Europe should be "outward- looking, with its eyes to the world, not gazing inwards" and should have "the flexibility of a network, not the rigidity of a bloc," he said….
"In all the figures that we bandy around about the financial-transactions tax, it is worth bearing in mind the fact that around 80 percent of it would be raised from businesses in the United Kingdom," Cameron told the House of Commons Nov. 7. "I am sometimes tempted to ask the French whether they would like a cheese tax."
The war is now economic ... but the consequences are every bit as real.
MM
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kettbo
Senior Airman
Some good points Glider!
China vs a declining Russian Sphere
China vs Taiwan
Iran vs anybody that lines up
I miss getting under the desk for air raid drills
Bet all the back yard shelters have deteriorated or have become mushroom farms
I was BLACKHORSE, Border Cav, led patrols along the IGB (E-W German Border) 88-89, saw the wall come down and border open up later in 89.
Also DIV CAV, 2ID, was within running distance to the Korean DMZ and Imjin River. Real Cold War experience!
China vs a declining Russian Sphere
China vs Taiwan
Iran vs anybody that lines up
I miss getting under the desk for air raid drills
Bet all the back yard shelters have deteriorated or have become mushroom farms
I was BLACKHORSE, Border Cav, led patrols along the IGB (E-W German Border) 88-89, saw the wall come down and border open up later in 89.
Also DIV CAV, 2ID, was within running distance to the Korean DMZ and Imjin River. Real Cold War experience!
Agreed, and I do not think it will get any worse than that. The western European nations are too close today to let it get any further than that. Germany has no desire to go to war with the UK or any other nation as a matter of fact. The German people would not stand for it, nor is the German govt. wanting anything of that nature.
If a real military threat arises it will not come from within Europe, it will come from the outside, and the main European powers (UK, Germany, France, Italy, etc) will all stand together. There is not doubt in my mind. There is no need to think anything otherwise as well.
Were you with 1/4 CAV? I did a deployment to Kosovo and then Iraq with 1/4 CAV. Good bunch of guys.
Small world with the wall. I was up in Berlin when it came down as well. Of course I was just a military dependent at the time...
- Thread starter
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Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Did the name 'the cold war', come from that the soldiers had to stay out in the snow all day?
It is because it was not a "HOT" war. The two sides were not shooting at each other. At least not in the public's eye.
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Good points, but...Russia can attack us economically with oil and gas. That'll bring the EU house of cards down quicker than a military strike...
John
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
At the end of World War II, English author and journalist George Orwell used the term Cold War in his essay "You and the Atomic Bomb", published October 19, 1945, in the British newspaper Tribune. Contemplating a world living in the shadow of the threat of nuclear warfare, he warned of a "peace that is no peace", which he called a permanent "cold war",
Orwell directly referred to that war as the ideological confrontation between the Soviet Union and the Western powers.
Moreover, in The Observer of March 10, 1946, Orwell wrote that "after the Moscow conference last December, Russia began to make a 'cold war' on Britain and the British Empire."
Lifted from wiki, but this is my understanding of the phrase 'cold war'
John
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".... The German people would not stand for it, nor is the German govt. wanting anything of that nature. "
It is my understanding that various German STATE legislatures have rejected the idea of providing free rides to the countries in Europe now facing sovereign debt crises. As hard workers and moralists, the German people seem to be saying enough is enough. I am not suggesting that this will lead to "shots" being fired. But I am stating that Europe has surrendered its future (no children, large pensions, massive social entitlements, unsustainable levels of gov't spending, and huge levels of consumer DEBT) and have chosen to only live for the present. Europe is being overthrown by its fertile immigrants who do not share Europe's values or history.
"That's the way the world ends, not with a bang but with a whimper".*
* T.S. Eliot
MM
It is my understanding that various German STATE legislatures have rejected the idea of providing free rides to the countries in Europe now facing sovereign debt crises. As hard workers and moralists, the German people seem to be saying enough is enough. I am not suggesting that this will lead to "shots" being fired. But I am stating that Europe has surrendered its future (no children, large pensions, massive social entitlements, unsustainable levels of gov't spending, and huge levels of consumer DEBT) and have chosen to only live for the present. Europe is being overthrown by its fertile immigrants who do not share Europe's values or history.
"That's the way the world ends, not with a bang but with a whimper".*
* T.S. Eliot
MM
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Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
A lot of truths there Michael. We have been over run by the former Soviet bloc countries, other countries that lied to get into the EU /EZ , counties with an idiot in charge who amassed a mountain of unpayable debt and the final straw is the countries that have contributed virtually nothing and just taken.
No wonder Frau Merkle is fed up....so, are we.
The wheels are going to come off the pram very soon as we all have danced with the devil (bankers) and got our arses well and truly fried.
There was me looking forward to a secure retirement. I should coca.
John
You are certainly correct. The German people are fed up with the "free rides". They are the ones that are paying for it, and the government never asked them if they wanted to be a part of it.
I too don't agree with the free ride BS.
I repeat however, it will not lead to Germany invading a country over it. The days of that happening ended over 66 years ago...
Glider
Captain
Yes and no. Certainly Russia did and at the current time could hold Europe to ransom by its control of fuel and power, but having played that card it is loosing much of its threat. The mantra used to be the power at the lowest cost, now security of supply is at least as important. Here in the uK the possibility of using shale oil/Gas is being hotly debated, the stocks are vast and should it get the go ahead we will be self sufficient for many years. Or to put it another way in the UK there are approx 4 billion cubic meters of unexplored gas reserves in the North Sea and approx 130 billion cubic meters of gas reserves in shale gas. It should be noted that many countries have deposits of this nature but the only country to use it in quantity is the USA.
You have all heard of the phrase, Necessity is the Mother of Invention. Well by playing the threat card, Russia has shown the Necessity and Invention is coming on line. The following is a good article on the topic.
Energy crisis is postponed as new gas rescues the world - Telegraph
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".... we all have danced with the devil (bankers) and got our arses well and truly fried."
I'm no fan of bankers. That said, they fufill a need - and it is that consumer need (envy, status, instant gratification, bigger, better, faster, more ... etc.) that is the devil. In the Midddle Ages, European countries (including GB) expelled their Jewish populations and expropriated all their assets in order to liberate the wealth they were holding. With hindsight to guide us, we know now how misguided actions of that sort were. Spain (for example) saw a New World of gold and plunder come in one door and piss away out another door without gaining anything of substance for the infusion (except religious wars and the
Armada Fleet). By expelling their Jewsh money lenders, Spain deprived themselves of the knowledge and means to retain and invest their wealth.
I do not have much respect for bankers. But my perspective is coloured by the fact that Canadian banks are the best in the world. As taxpayers we have not had to bail our banks out. In the 1930's, no Canadian banks failed. So I believe that banks and bankers can play important roles as long as they are governed by hard-headed populist realism.
When the Bill Clinton gov't elected to ensure that poor people could buy houses that they couldn't afford, the writing was on the wall. Bankers, being bankers, said (to themselves) OK, if that's what you want Mr. Clinton we'll do it, but make money in the process and off-load the risk as much as possible. Outcome: Fanny and Freddie.
The root of all that is wrong today is the love of other people's money.
To those who might claim I am O.T. ..... I say: Cold War "after shocks"
MM
Proud Canadian
I'm no fan of bankers.
That said, they fufill a need - and it is that consumer need (envy, status, instant gratification, bigger, better, faster, more ... etc.) that is the devil. In the Midddle Ages, European countries (including GB) expelled their Jewish populations and expropriated all their assets in order to liberate the wealth they were holding. With hindsight to guide us, we know now how misguided actions of that sort were. Spain (for example) saw a New World of gold and plunder come in one door and piss away out another door without gaining anything of substance for the infusion (except religious wars and theArmada Fleet
). By expelling their Jewsh money lenders, Spain deprived themselves of the knowledge and means to retain and invest their wealth.I do not have much respect for bankers. But my perspective is coloured by the fact that Canadian banks are the best in the world. As taxpayers we have not had to bail our banks out. In the 1930's, no Canadian banks failed. So I believe that banks and bankers can play important roles as long as they are governed by hard-headed populist realism.
When the Bill Clinton gov't elected to ensure that poor people could buy houses that they couldn't afford, the writing was on the wall. Bankers, being bankers, said (to themselves) OK, if that's what you want Mr. Clinton we'll do it, but make money in the process and off-load the risk as much as possible. Outcome: Fanny and Freddie.
The root of all that is wrong today is the love of other people's money.
To those who might claim I am O.T.
..... I say: Cold War "after shocks"MM
Proud Canadian
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
".... we all have danced with the devil (bankers) and got our arses well and truly fried."
I'm no fan of bankers.
Armada Fleet
I do not have much respect for bankers. But my perspective is coloured by the fact that Canadian banks are the best in the world. As taxpayers we have not had to bail our banks out. In the 1930's, no Canadian banks failed. So I believe that banks and bankers can play important roles as long as they are governed by hard-headed populist realism.
When the Bill Clinton gov't elected to ensure that poor people could buy houses that they couldn't afford, the writing was on the wall. Bankers, being bankers, said (to themselves) OK, if that's what you want Mr. Clinton we'll do it, but make money in the process and off-load the risk as much as possible. Outcome: Fanny and Freddie.
The root of all that is wrong today is the love of other people's money.
To those who might claim I am O.T.
MM
Proud Canadian
You make an interesting point Michael.
Your historical points about the British and Jews are correct. To our shame.
I would also add that the Wall Street crash can be directly attrituted to greed and over extending credit. The Bankers were responsible for the over extenstion but, not peoples greed.
The 'South Sea Bubble' is another example of finanical ineptitude.
So, spin forward to the ever smiling Mr Blair in 1997... New Labour started the big sell out and courted allsorts of ghastly people, bankers and er...a certain Egyptian. Yes, 'we' had 'good times' with a housing boom, credit coming out of our ears, new cars, a new generation of young Brits that had this wonderfull sense of entitlement.... But, it was all built on sand.
Ordinary run of the mill Brits could not afford fancy detached house, a his and hers Audi / BMW, holidays in Nice and an endless spend spend spend culture.
We have hit the buffers and people are angry.
The Blairs have sailed into the eternal sunset on millions of pounds a years talking bollocks to anyone foolish enough to listen and we have to pick up the pieces.
Do we learn though ? Somehow I doubt it. This will blow over, like the EU / EZ crisis. Europe has too much to lose.
Demoracy is under threat with the unholy alliances getting rid of the Italian fool and basically sorting the Greeks out but, war? That'll never happen. Chris is quite right about that.
When this is all over people will want the 'good times' back....whatever the future cost is.
Call me a cynical old bastard if you like.
The Swedes, like the Canadians have it sorted.
We don't..
John
