The Fiat G 56

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by post76, Oct 20, 2011.

  1. post76

    post76 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    If this aircraft were produced in Mid 1944, do you think it would've made a difference for the Axis powers in Europe?
     
  2. jim

    jim Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Im mid 44 no ,too late. But g55 first flew 30/04/1942 and DB 603A was in production by January 43 .So ,theoriricaly G56 would be possible to be in service by late summer 43 . then it would have an impact on air war. With a speed of 700km/h ,excellent handling , strong airframe , heavy armamentwould help enormously but of course the outcome would be the same. After all the numbers made the difference. We must notice however that it was more expensive than the german fighters and logistically would be a better choise to introduce the Db603 to the Fw190 airframe.
    I always liked the german aircrafts ,but today i believe that G56 and Re2006 were possibly the best poor air superiority fighter airframes of the entire war. Even Re 2005 was very very competitive.
     
  3. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The G.56 seems to have been a fine aircraft a straigforward development of the G.55 Centauro with the DB605 replaced by the big DB.603A engine of 1750hp. The DB603E was also becomming available in 1944 and this increased power to 1800 and added 2km to the full throttle height (about 7.3 instead of 5.4 or so)

    The Germans and axis needed superior aircraft like the G.56 by mid 1943 before the P-51B hits them in large numbers in December 1943/January 1944. However the DB603 was already available in Jan 1943 (powering Me 410) so there is no reason that the G.56 couldn't have been produced around then. The Italians needed superior aircraft in large numbers before the allied landings in the northern Mediteranean in 43/44. Large numbers of G.55 was adaquet in 1943 and really also 1944 if they were fitted with the DB605AM or oversized supercharger DB605ASM (both with Water Methanol Special Emergency Power or super-WEP)

    I recall seeing a roll rate comparison between the Italian fighters and German ones, despite the good handling of the Italian aircraft most had poor roll rates. Can't find link now.

    However a G.56 in Mid 1944 is still better than a FW 190D9 in november or a TA 152C or Ta 152H in Feb 1945 but I think mid 1944 was too late.

    The G.56 with the 2260hp DB603EM (C3 fuel and MW50) would have been a monster. With the two stage DB603LA it would become Godzilla. Witth the 2800hp DB603N it would have been Mothra and Godzilla together.
     
  4. vanir

    vanir Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    705
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne
    #4 vanir, Oct 20, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2011
    I haven't seen the original document but there is a meeting by minutes on record between Goering, Galland and Hitler specifically discussing the G.56 after Goering saw a prototype demonstration in Italy. He wanted them for the Luftwaffe. The meeting discusses difficulties in maintaining current aircraft production iirc for putting 603 engines in modified 109 production (ie. Me-309 which did prototype but production was cancelled in favour of Tank/FockeWulf development), the state of the war could not afford the industrial transitional period for such radical changes to the current model (it was hard enough going from Emil to Friedrich, let alone Gustav to something that resembles a Mustang with a bomber engine). Messerschmitt proposed making the Me-309 using 30% or more of Me-262 parts but it wasn't enough and Dora/Tank fighters enter production easily using readily modified Anton plants.
    I don't even know if it's a genuine historical record or fiction but the point is the same either way.

    So the German equivalent to the G.56 was really the Dora and Tank series fighters, over the course of 1945 it was planned that all versions in general service would transition to the DB-603 motor (variously EB/C, G and L/LA motors), even the Ta-152H was planned to switch to the DB-603LA from mid-45 production had the war continued, according to Dietmar Hermann.

    Germany got its equivalent, just not until the engines were available.

    The Italian use of the G.56 could not have been any better. It was only prototyped and there were no series engines available for mass production of a fighter installation any sooner than the Germans could do it. DB-603 production was very convoluted and sporadic, most of those used in wartime testing like the 603G were limited production only and did not enter mass production, and did not find its way into planned equipment in the Me-410B for example (so they used the same 603A engines as the 410A and only differed in equipment).

    The 603E series (EB and EC motors) never entered mass production and was only prototyped in some fighter projects like the Ta-152C as an L motor substitute. The 603EB that was in Fw-190V21/U1 in November 1944 was designated 603E-V17 serial 525 and a prototype engine. The 603EC that was in Ta-152V6 in December 1944 was designated 603E-V19. The 603EC in Ta-152V7 was 603E-V20.

    The 603LA did enter at least limited production but not until March 1945. A prototype 603LA-V16 was put in 190V21/U1 (the original airframe they modified to come up with the Ta-152C structure/layout based on a Dora testing prototype), that was in December 1944 but no more were put in aircraft until after March, in practise V7 was the only other prototype that got one.

    So that only leaves the 603A which actually entered mass production and the 603G was only produced in limited numbers like the E series, prototyped and used only in testing, aircraft like the Me-410B which was supposed to have them, had 603A in reality.
     
  5. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #5 Siegfried, Oct 20, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011
    I see no problem with the performance of a G.56 powered by the DB603A or the DB603AA (both of which were available, 85 x DB603AA were used on the He 219A2 I believe.)

    The AA provides more power at altitude at the expense of lower sea level power. It opens up the possibillity of optimising the G.56 DB603A for fighting below 5700m/19000ft and the G.56 DB603AA for fighting around 7300m (24000ft)

    Obviously around 1944 improved version offereing more power will need to become available, for instance the DB603AM.

    DB 603A, rated altitude of 5.7 km, B4 fuel
    Power (max): 1287 kW (1750 PS) at 2700 rpm at sea level
    Combat power: 1162 kW (1580 PS) at 2500 rpm at sea level

    DB 603AA DB 603A with rated altitude of 7.3 km, B4 fuel
    Power (max): 1228 kW (1670 PS) at 2700 rpm at sea level
    Combat power: 1162 kW (1580 PS) at 2500 rpm at sea level


    From Another Forum by seaplanes: DB603 deliveries to Heinkel:

    "I found the following information that may be of help in this case:
    Source BA/MA RL 3/1024 Flugzeug-Programm 227 Ausgabe 1, dated January 9, 1945:

    Muster Motor Total on order delivered to Planned deliveries
    30.11.1944 from 01.12.44
    He 219A-0 DB 603A 104 104 nil
    He 210A-2 DB 603AA 85 85 nil
    He 219A-7 DB 603E 210 nil 210
    He 219D-1 213E 5 nil 5

    All were produced by the Ernst Heinkel Flugzeug Werke.
    "
     
  6. vanir

    vanir Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    705
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne
    #6 vanir, Oct 21, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2011
    Okay so it appears the only failing deliveries were the E series. The A and Aa series both appear to be getting delivered reliably in numbers.

    Still the Dora and Ta-152 airframes that tested DB-603 all used prototype 603E and their calculated figures in 1944 were based off projected 603G data, which I don't know if were ever even fitted to anything, nothing I've found so far although it had been planned for several (and claimed by some, but never actually fitted to any by historical example). Same with lots of things like Mk103 motorguns.

    What I do know is the Ta-152C/V7 with the EC motor was used for upper envelope performance testing, this airframe was the speed demon one, she recorded the 617km/h at 30 feet thing, fully war loaded with four MG151 and ETC rack I might add.
    But at the same time the prototype Me-309V was tested with the 603A and it single handedly killed the project because the performance was so dismal. It was only marginally better than the current high performance versions of the Me-109 which couldn't justify the switch.
     
  7. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The Me 309 with DB603A (not G) supposedly recorded a speed of 455mph around the time that it flew in July 1942, which would have been vastly superior to the contemporary Me 109G2 of 397 mph or so.

    Supposedly when the Me 309 was armed its speed fell to the point that it had negligible advantage over the Me 109.

    There has got to be some bull-dust in this story. I can not conceive of any armament that could pull 55 mph or even 27 or 15 mph of the Me 309. Even a pair of gondola 30 mm guns beneath the smaller weaker Me 109G cut speed by a minuscule 6 km/h or 1.1%. The tests must have overloaded the aircraft with ridiculously huge armament requirements.

    The Me 309 had some interesting technology for instance a laminar flow wing. It's likely it would have kept up with the P-51A at low altitude that was then entering service and been much faster than it at higher altitudes.

    Kurfürst - Geschwindigkeitseinfluß von 2 MK 108 unter den Flächen der Me 109 G.

    Ergebnis: Geschwindigkeit ohne Attrappen Vw = 525 km/h

    Geschwindigkeit mit Attrappen Vw = 519 km/h

    Geschwindigkeitsverlust durch Attrappen ΔV = 6 km/h

    n = 2600 U/min; p – 1,30 ata; B = 717 mm Hg;
    t = 19°C; H = 480 m.
    ***********

    Next is the more serious allegation that the aircraft had a worse maneuverability in turning flight. It's not clear to me whether this is a turning rate or a turning circle.
    If the turning rate is less it may be more of a power to weight ratio issue, if it is a turning circle issue it may be a more of a wing loading issue.

    If maneuverability is required then the wing area needs to be increased: say 20%. To compensate add 10% power something which the DB603A should achieve when it progresses.

    Of course if we tested a P-47A with 87 octane it too might be looking a little like a dog.

    The real reason might be shortages of the DB603 engine because the next several prototypes move to the smaller DB605 engine then only entering service on the Me 109G1 is being installed in the subsequent Me 309 test aircraft. This is like testing the P-47 with a R-2600 engine.

    It seems to me that with the Me 309 flight testing in Mid 1942 it could be in production in Mid 1943 with a few modifications such as a bigger wing. Of course it didn't help that the Me 309 prototype was put on low priority and flew 6 months behind what it could have and that the DB603 was not really in production yet.

    This is also occurring at the height of the Me 210 crisis, when Willy Messerschmitt is being deposed and the companies reputation is in tatters.

    I don't think the Me 309 story has really been told yet.
     
  8. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    178
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Italy
    G55 - Aircraft History

    It is hard to say “production” when speaking about italian “Serie 5” fighters, as they were practically made one by one in a strict “artisanal” way, even if the Fiat was, among Macchi 205 and Reggiane 2005, the only one designed with a slight idea of “mass production” in mind.
    For his very reason the Fiat was, among the “Serie 5” the one present in less numbers with the “Regia Aeronautica” until Sept. 8, 1943.

    Certainly in Italy, 1944, the manifacturing of an airplane in numbers was out of question and, even if Germans would have preferred the Fiat to theirs 109s and 190s, starting a license production in the Reich, probably no less than two years would have been necessary to redesign the inside of the plane in a more suitable way, together with the extruded aluminium and the tooling and jigs necessary for a mass production, taking the resources of manpower and materials from aircrafts that were produced in that very moment.
    And this was unthinkable by a German ( and mine) point of view, even if the Fiat G 56 was an outstanding fighter.

    G56-Prototype.jpg

    O.T.

    It would be very interesting to know what the test Pilots at Tangmere did think about ....(of course this is a G 55 and not a G 56)

    [​IMG]

    I’ve read some of their opinions about Macchi 202 and 205, Reggiane 2005 and Fiat CR 42, but never anything about the Fiat G 55.
     
  9. post76

    post76 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    I've seen the comparisons and the italian series five fighters seem superior to most contemporary designs.

    Why continue to build 109s when thousands were already in the field?
    Perhaps they were more complex and complicated to build, and matching the Allied fighter force was more about numbers than superior performance.
    My guess is the G. 56 didn't make it into production for the same reason, and the DB603 would be kind of shorthanded, no?

    I took a glance at the performance figures for the Series five fighters on Kurfursts site.
     
  10. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    835
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Do you have a souce fo the clim the 603E did not enter production? I was to power the He 219 A-7 and Heinkel delivered 50+ A-7 from late 1944 on.
    AFAIR the 603G was stopped because it required C3 fuel whereas the 603E achieved its performance with standard B4 fuel with an option to got the Mw-50 route as well.
     
  11. vanir

    vanir Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    705
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne
    You know what you're probably right Siegfried. You know I don't really know anything about the Me-309 except from a couple of web blogs. The one I saw has a great artists impression of one, and I think I've seen a prototype partially built in a photo kicking around somewhere. I was thinking, damn they shouldn't have cancelled that but put the 603G into full production and slap those in until the E is available.
    It was that blog that said it wasn't much better than a 109G in war trim. Two MG151 and a motorgun wasn't it for these? Some pilot armour, full set of radios...

    I think you're right, it shouldn't have killed speed that much. It's a nice, clean design stealing the thrust producing radiator from the Mustang (actually I think the Me209 projects discovered it independently).
    The Me-262 cockpit/tail section gives a bubble canopy and clean lines. Laminar flow wings you say? This should've kicked butt with any 603 motor really.

    Must've been industrial reasons, downsizing for jets, diverting 603 production to FW (which was limited by 605 demands anyway) and a reluctance to divert jet parts to piston manufacture.
     
  12. vanir

    vanir Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    705
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne
    The records show despite orders placed, very few 603G or E actually appeared in any aircraft demonstrably. What was in aircraft listed as having 603G (like the Me-410B) in fact had 603A motors.
    The only 603E actually put in aircraft were protype engines. Both G and E series would most accurately be described as limited (pre-) production engines. The 603E may very well have entered mass production around the end of 1944/early45 but what aircraft was it put in? (not planned but I mean a physical example). The 603LA went into mass production around June45, two production series went into aircraft but before then I only know about 603A/Aa production for service orders myself, does anyone know differently?
     
  13. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    178
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Italy
    #13 Elmas, Oct 22, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2011
    Certainly there were thousands in the field, but the attrition rate in aerial warfare was so high that hundreds every week were required to fill the losses.....

    Today, with CAD and CAM it is a little bit different ( uhmmm, maybe not so much: let’s see the delays in production of the 787 and A 380, for example.....) but in those day an aeroplane prototipe was built entirely by hand as a “one off”: if the performances were satisfactory, a small series of planes (say, a couple of dozens) were built, to test more thoroughly armament, engine, electrical and idraulics plants, training pilots etc.

    Only if a huge thunderstorm was foreseen, as was from 1936 onwards, and the necessity to build aeroplanes in huge numbers would arise, was thinkable to build aeroplanes in an industrial, rather than in an artisanal way.

    The 109 was designed with this well in mind, Hitler now too well that a war was on the edge, and so an easy production of this plane was from the beginning present on the drawing board of Willy Messerschmitt: I don’t remember well if was he who said that “An aeroplane employed in a war will never become worn out, as it is to be destroyed well before.....”

    Prudently, England didn’t put all the eggs in one basket, so they produced both Hurricanes and Spitfires....and mass produced Spitfires were, industrially speaking, a completely different thing from K 5054...

    In Italy in those days a mass production of aeroplanes was out of question as, simply, there wasn’t the machinery ( heavy presses to obtain a wing rib just in one shot from an aluminium sheet etc.....) to build them, so the Italian aeroplanes were built in a number of small pieces patiently assembled one by one as a giant jigsaw work: look at the complexity of the fuselage of the CR 42 biplane, that first flew in middle 1938:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    and of the wing


    [​IMG]


    This structure was light, strong and capable to suffer heavy punishments, but also extremely difficult to build: an Italian fighter did need five time more manpower than a 109 ( from my memory, but more or less so).

    So, no wonder that the Germans considered practically impossible to build under license the G 56, when a war was going on.
     
  14. riacrato

    riacrato Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2009
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Project Manager in FADEC industrialization
    I think so, too. There is very little first hand material available about the failure of the Me 309, it'd be very interesting to see the actual results and the corresponding conditions. One thing that's for sure to me though, is that the Fw 190 C prototypes that had flown around the same time were the much safer and reasonable bet: More conventional, but basically it was able to do whatever the Me 309 could and it could've been in production in no time. Not building the Fw 190 C alongside the A was a major mistake.
     
  15. post76

    post76 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    i can't help notice that most Italian fighter designs resemble the earlier Avia B - 135.
    In fact, they all have that same basic Macchi trademark shape.

    There is a comparison of Kurfursts site that puts the Re-2005 ahead of the bunch, including the G.55 and 109G.
    I found it a tough read, however, as i used the google chrome translator.
     
  16. post76

    post76 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Another look...

    [​IMG]
    The Avia B-135

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Fiat G-59
     
  17. vanir

    vanir Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    705
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Melbourne
    #17 vanir, Oct 22, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2011
    But they did that. The Fw190B/C began as a private venture by Kurt Tank's team at Focke Wulf, when the RLM finally tabled a höhenjäger requirement it turned into the Ta-153 project, which became the Ta-152 project and caused a requirement for an interim fighter that would enter production sooner using simpler modifications to Antons: the Dora.

    The Fw-190C was basically an early version Ta-152C using a turbosupercharger instead of a two-stage blower. It was at an early stage of development, that's why it didn't enter production, not because nobody wanted it to but because it wasn't ready, the Ta-152C was definitely entering production at the end of the war. This is what it had finally matured into, and it is a heavily modified Anton so production is easily transitioned without serious loss of output.


    What you are seeing here in action, what we all saw is the truth behind aircraft development. Most of the fighters flown during the war or entering production during the war were designed before the war. It just took that long to get them developed into production. There are only a relative handful of notable exceptions, like the Mustang which set design records. The Fw-190A you see suffered a prewar design setback when the planned engine went out of production. So it was still being designed at the start of the war. And generally aircraft which started development at the start of the war were lucky to make production by its end. Considering Tanks little shop of FW variants got up and running in 1942 it's quite an achievement to get a 2000hp fighter in production just as the war ended.

    According to most course curriculums, in the 30s-40s in fighter manufacture, a new fighter took three years to get from blueprint to prototype, a new aero engine took seven years. The biggest thing the Fw-190C/Ta-152C was waiting on was the 603 engine development as a high powered fighter engine like the 603E or L. As for aircraft design itself, that started in 1942 for this particular concept given only variation on a theme, thus entering production in 1945 is running by standard measures.
     
  18. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #18 Siegfried, Oct 23, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
    See Aeronautical research in Germany: from Lilienthal until today, Volume 147 By Ernst-Heinrich Hirschel, Horst Prem, Gero Madelung
    Page 179 for info on Me 309 laminar profile wings.


    Aeronautical research in Germany ... - Ernst-Heinrich Hirschel, Horst Prem, Gero Madelung - Google Books

    Amazingly two researchers K.A. Kowalki in 1940 and latter with B. Goethert in 1944 reported on supercritical airfoils. This report saved Airbus a huge sum of money in a law suit Boeing had brought against airbus.

    Me 309's belly radiator was retractable.

    With Jumo 213A entering service in mid 1942 with the Ju 188E and the DB603E with the Me 410 in Jan 43 can't see what the holdup was with the FW 190D9 entering service in only November 1944 or making that engine available to G.56. Perhaps developing the emergency boost systems?
     
  19. Siegfried

    Siegfried Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Elmass, in terms of production costs the Me 109 was also designed to be produced by small subcontractor firms, this in fact made it more difficult to mass produce whereby large assumblies are pressed or made in single opperations. The progression from Me 109E, through F,G and finally K greatly faciliated opportunties to facilitate mass production. The onerous compound curves of the Spitfire were so hard to produce they almost lost the RAF the BoB due to this feature, however when large scale presses from the motor industry were introduced the disadvantage became an advantage.

    There are rough costs of the Me 109 series in man hours, minus engine.
    Bf-109E (1939)
    12,000 Man Hours
    Bf-109E (1940)
    6,000~ Man Hours
    Bf-109F (1941)
    7,800~ Man Hours
    Bf-109F (1942)
    4,000 Man Hours
    Bf-109G (1942)
    5,700~ Man Hours
    Bf-109G (1943)
    4,000 Man Hours
    Bf-109G (1944)
    2,000 Man Hours

    The problem for Italy is obvious: she did not have signifcant sources of either coal or oil so a highly industrialised economy built around high energy mass production would take time to develop. Natural gas was discovered in Italy during the war (using a German supplied balance gravitometer) but could not be exploited till after war.

    Then Italian engine industry let itself slip behined in the vital 1938-1942 period though the 850kg 1500hp 18 cylinder Piaggio P.XII seems to have been an outstanding engine of low weight no fighter airframe was there to exploit it; this forced a quick catch up via liscence produced DB601 and DB605 which the Italian airframes seemed to exploit much better than the Me 109.
     
  20. Elmas

    Elmas Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    607
    Likes Received:
    178
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    Italy
    #20 Elmas, Oct 23, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2011
    If I remember well, 30.000 hours were needed to produce a Macchi 202.......

    I think the industrial production problems that affected the Spitfire, fortunately for England, were solved before the BoB, ( even not very much before....) as during the Battle there wasn't a particular shortage of Spitfires.
    Certainly, the numbers were not those that the factory at Castle Bromwich could assure after the production started there from June 1940 onwards.

    The Piaggio P.XII was certainly a well designed engine but.......
    Briefly, as Italy in 1936 was sanctioned by the League of Nations, the raw materials used in the Nation had to be "autarchic" and as minimum depending from abroad: so the metal alloys used in italian engines were of very poor quality for the lack of the metals like chromium, manganese etc. and that caused the Italian engines of high power to be very unreliable.

    And, finally, to the contrary of the general opinion that the "Regia Aeronautica" had a special treatment by the Fascist Government, most of the money spent in the Italian Armed Forces in the first '30 did actually go to the "Regia Marina": and so the lack of research and development in modern aeroplanes and aero engines even if, by my personal point of view, I dare say that the professional skills of Mario Castoldi and Giuseppe Gabrielli were not inferior to those of Reginald J. Mitchell o Willy Messerschmitt.

    Cheers
     
Loading...

Share This Page