I agree Wuzak, they were essentially research projects. If you can identify obvious faults then you propose solutions for the next generation. If your nation state is threatened you may well press on regardless. Compare the number of Jumo 004s, BMW 003 engines made plus Me 262s constructed to their number of claims/confirmed kills and losses and overall it was probably a loss to German industry.
The first real jet engine
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parsifal
Colonel
Much as I cannot stand hitler, arguing in any form that Germany was a "misled nation" defeated by mismanagement is misconstruing the truth.
it has been proven many times, in many places that the germans were fully aware of what they were doing, were fully complicit to the conduct of the war and there were many mistakes made not just by hitler. Blaming hitler solely for Germany's defeat is a half truth, which makes it a lie of the worst kind. hitler was a factor, but he was not the only factor in German defeat.
German designs as a rule were excellent pieces of technology and nearly useless engines for war. never more true than in thir jet and rocket engine development programs.
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- #103
Messerschmitt Me 262 – Wikipedia
Sorry can`t find an English version of this page. At least it shows within the first/upper section that 800 Me 262 were in service. Due to the TBO of 2 hours
of the engines there were only 350 available for daily combat.
Google Translate gives this translation which is how I read it, I spent 9 years in Germany. The highest number ever used in a day was 55 of which 27 were lost.
On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262 formations from 1221 bombers and 632 fighter planes attacked. Twelve bombers and two hunters were shot down on two of their own losses. The maximum number of flights of the Me 262 took place on April 10, 1945. At 55 stakes of the Me 262, ten bombers were shot down, but their own losses amounted to 27 fighter planes this time
To help you guys translate:
= 1433 of the two-jet machines were build between 1943 and 1945, out of which about 800 were put into service with the Luftwaffe of the Wehrmacht.
Altogether 1433 ME262s were built, but usually there were not more than 100 machines (mostly less) combat ready at any time.
Obviously you've never owned a BMW! I love driving them, have driven a few, from M3s to 320s, 325s etc of different years, but I'd never own one, too much maintenance required and too expensive to run. Very cheap to buy, even low houred ones here, Audis and Mercs are the same. When they work, they go fine, but you know that eventually, they are gonna fail. Beaut cars though, when they do work. BMW = Battered Mitsubishi Wagon.
Oh, about the P-80 prototype, the engine was not a Whittle, it was a Halford H.1 (by Frank Halford working for de Havilland) and the failure was not the engine, but the jet's intake sidewalls were too weak, which caused the engine to suck them into itself. Again matey, you need to get your facts straight if you expect people to take you seriously.
As for the Me 262, let's not gloss over its reliability issues brought about by the fact that its engines were not made of good quality materials, such as those used in British and US engines, restricting the Me 262 to around 5 to 25 hours time between overhaul. Not very practicable when you are trying to stop from losing (because, let's face it, even by 1944, when Me 262s hit the front lines, victory was beyond the Germans' abilities, what with their industry being decimated by Allied bombing).
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- Thread starter
- #108
Kurt Welter – Wikipedia
Pilot Kurt Welter was one of the most highly decorated jet pilots during WW 2. He reached 63 victorys during only 93 combats. 56 victorys at night runs and 25 with the Me 262. So there must be something wrong when telling a wrong story about the Jumo 004. At least after each TBO by changing compressor shovels the Jet was ready to go again. They worked 24 h a day in three shifts to get the overhauling done. The Jumo 004 did pruduce 5150 kW/7000 hp
at full throttle. This could only be reached by using a 12 stage compressor as an axial Jet engine. By showing only a single compressor the Whittle radial one could not compete. It`s your turn telling the max hp of a Whittle one. In my opinion a single compressor is unable feeding the engine with enough air at high rpm. That`s why the Shooting Star did show such a poor Performance - a wasted investment. With the first German Jet they captured the US copied it - as they stated ! This Statement can be seen at almost every US-Air Museeum - but impossible for Hendon. That makes the difference !
Why did the US took out everything they could grab - when you had everything better up front and that long before as you say.
Messerschmitt Me 262 – Wikipedia
Die Strahltriebwerke der Me 262 lieferten bei niedriger Geschwindigkeit im Vergleich zu Propeller-Antrieben relativ wenig, bei hoher Geschwindigkeit dagegen vergleichsweise viel Schub (bei der Me 262 rund 5150 kW / 7000 PS); außerdem wies die Maschine wegen ihrer hohen Masse eine geringere Wendigkeit als die ...
Stückzahl: 1433
Hersteller: Messerschmitt AG
Erstflug: 18. Juli 1942
Typ: Strahlgetriebener Jagdbomber
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wuzak
Captain
Jumo 004B-1 (the major production version): 1,985lbf static thrust, 720kg weight, pressure ratio 3.0:1 to 3.5:1
Rolls-Royce Wellend (Whittle engine with reverse flow combustors, fitted to 20 Meteor F.Is and 15 Meteor F.IIIs): 1,600lb static thrust, 386kg,
Rolls-Royce Derwent I (main engine for Meteor F.III, straight through combustors): 2,000lbf static thrust, 442kg, 3.9: pressure ratio
Halford H.1/de Havilland Goblin I: 2,300lbf (prototype) - 2,700lbf (production) static thrust
Allison J33 (used on production P-80s): 4,600lbf (maximum), 3,900lbf (normal) static thrust, 825kg, 4.1:1 pressure ratio
Metropolitan Vickers F.2: 1,800lbf static thrust for initial testing, >2,000lbf static thrust during development
Metropolitan Vickers F.2/2: 2,400lbf static thrust, 680kg, 3.5:1 pressure ratio
Metropolitan Vickers F.3 (F.2/2 with unducted fan): 4,000lbf static thrust + 38% improvement in specific thrust (which was already better than those above)
EDIT:
Armstrong Siddeley ASX: 2,600lb static thrust, 862kg, pressure ratio 5:1.
According to Wiki, the ASX had a 14-stage axial reverse-flow compressor.
Armstrong Siddeley ASX - Wikipedia
EDIT 2:
The Jumo 004B only had an 8 stage compressor
Rolls-Royce Wellend (Whittle engine with reverse flow combustors, fitted to 20 Meteor F.Is and 15 Meteor F.IIIs): 1,600lb static thrust, 386kg,
Rolls-Royce Derwent I (main engine for Meteor F.III, straight through combustors): 2,000lbf static thrust, 442kg, 3.9: pressure ratio
Halford H.1/de Havilland Goblin I: 2,300lbf (prototype) - 2,700lbf (production) static thrust
Allison J33 (used on production P-80s): 4,600lbf (maximum), 3,900lbf (normal) static thrust, 825kg, 4.1:1 pressure ratio
Metropolitan Vickers F.2: 1,800lbf static thrust for initial testing, >2,000lbf static thrust during development
Metropolitan Vickers F.2/2: 2,400lbf static thrust, 680kg, 3.5:1 pressure ratio
Metropolitan Vickers F.3 (F.2/2 with unducted fan): 4,000lbf static thrust + 38% improvement in specific thrust (which was already better than those above)
EDIT:
Armstrong Siddeley ASX: 2,600lb static thrust, 862kg, pressure ratio 5:1.
According to Wiki, the ASX had a 14-stage axial reverse-flow compressor.
Armstrong Siddeley ASX - Wikipedia
EDIT 2:
The Jumo 004B only had an 8 stage compressor
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Shortround6
Major General
Translation by google so correction welcome.
The jet engines of the Me 262 delivered relatively little at low speed compared to propeller engines, but relatively high thrust at high speed (around 5150 kW / 7000 hp for the Me 262); In addition, the machine had a lower maneuverability because of its high mass than the ...
So here we are comparing an estimated hp of TWO engines to the thrust of a single engine to show the superiority of the German engine?
The P-80 did not use a "Whittle" engine. It did use a centrifugal compressor. They were General electric I-40s (later called J-33s)
the early P-80s used a 4,000lb thrust version (which weighed 1850lbs, a little over 200lbs more than the Jumo 004)
Please note that each Jumo 004 was making less that 2000lbs thrust. Both thrust ratings at sea level.
The Jumo engines used in the Me 262 used an eight stage compressor, not TWELVE.
converting thrust to HP is very tricky as it is dependent on aircraft speed. A jet sitting on the runway with brakes locked and/or wheels chocked is making zero horsepower regardless of how much thrust it is making because it is not moving.
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The British and French did the same and there was a limited amount of aircraft "grabbed." Educate yourself, read about operation lusty.
There is no doubt that there were many aspects of German aviation technology that surpassed what the allies had AT THAT TIME, but that superiority was being eclipsed and as we all know ultimately did not make a difference in the end.
Shortround6
Major General
I would note that communication in 1945 was nowhere near what it is today (could take guys at the front several days to communicate with officers/engineers at home even with the utmost priority.)
I would also point out that secrecy was carried out to an absurd level (at least in the US) With the US Army not only prohibiting contact between companies/projects but prohibiting contact between different factories/programs within the same company. The General Electric teams developing the centrifugal engines not being allowed to communicate with the team developing the axial flow turbo-prop and jet engine for example, even on burner construction or power turbine design.
The idea that officers/engineers in Europe in the spring of 1945 were fully up to date on the latest developments in testlabs back in the US is absurd.
Officers in the field in Germany in May on of 1945 having very little idea of what the engineers back home were doing or had accomplished, so they grabbed everything they could to sorted out later.
I would also point out, that until you grab everything and sort it out you don't have any real idea how useful (or useless) it will be.
I would also point out that secrecy was carried out to an absurd level (at least in the US) With the US Army not only prohibiting contact between companies/projects but prohibiting contact between different factories/programs within the same company. The General Electric teams developing the centrifugal engines not being allowed to communicate with the team developing the axial flow turbo-prop and jet engine for example, even on burner construction or power turbine design.
The idea that officers/engineers in Europe in the spring of 1945 were fully up to date on the latest developments in testlabs back in the US is absurd.
Officers in the field in Germany in May on of 1945 having very little idea of what the engineers back home were doing or had accomplished, so they grabbed everything they could to sorted out later.
I would also point out, that until you grab everything and sort it out you don't have any real idea how useful (or useless) it will be.
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- #114
There was much more to grab than they could carry. I am talking about the thousands of Jet engines which went for overhauling each night by truck or train
between the airfields and factorys. Each Jet had to had two engines in spare for changing by knowing about the short TBO of 2 h. So Jet engines were stored all over Germany as some factories did the overhaul. 1400 Me 262 were build - times three = 4200 engines. This was a huge project as they had almost a complete underground production line installed for producing 1200 Me 262 a day !!! The short TBO only because they could not get Kobalt and Mangan for making the compressor blades heat resisting. But a flight time of two hours ment two combats. By sending down 3 or 4 bomber each time it was a very good result. The Me 262 was so dangerous because of it`s big cannons - 40mm. If one bullet did hit a wing spar the wing broke off. (explosiv bullets)
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
If the Me 262 was serviceable to get into the air to deliver the shell, first getting through the fighter escort, and if there was sufficient fuel to get the serviceable Me 262 into the air, after towing it across the field with horses or bullocks.
There is no doubt that the Me 262 was the first jet to see active service, and the basics of the aircraft were sound - but, at the time, it was NOT a wonder weapon and, under the circumstances in the dwindling Reich at the time, never would be, especially the engines. Given time (which was not an option), with development, funding, testing and more experience of jet fighter operation, it could have turned out to be a superb machine, but the facts and figures already presented here show that this didn't happen, regardless of personal opinion, revisionist bull sh*t merchants, Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, so please, do yourself a favour, and stop digging a bigger hole which is rapidly filling up with effluent !
There is no doubt that the Me 262 was the first jet to see active service, and the basics of the aircraft were sound - but, at the time, it was NOT a wonder weapon and, under the circumstances in the dwindling Reich at the time, never would be, especially the engines. Given time (which was not an option), with development, funding, testing and more experience of jet fighter operation, it could have turned out to be a superb machine, but the facts and figures already presented here show that this didn't happen, regardless of personal opinion, revisionist bull sh*t merchants, Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, so please, do yourself a favour, and stop digging a bigger hole which is rapidly filling up with effluent !
For a while when I lived in Germany I stayed in a huge farm house with a family in the Giforn region. The old guy Otto who owned the place was in the quivailant of the RAF regiment, a soldier trained to protect airfields. For a while he was on a field with 262s operating. Whenever the name was mentioned he just looked whistfully in the distance and muttered "schönes Flugzeug".
Shortround6
Major General
A short history (probably slightly flawed) of the GE centrifugal engines.
In March of 1941 a committee is formed to explore jet engine propulsion with representatives from Army, Navy, NACA, MIT, John Hopkins and three US turbine manufactures, including GE. General Arnold had excluded American aircraft engine manufacturers considering they already had enough work to do.
In May of 1941 General Arnold is shown the British jet engine and the Gloster E28/39.
All three companies (Allis-Chalmers, GE and Westinghouse) submitted proposals at about the same time, all using axial flow compressors.
General Arnold returns to Washington and requests that GE send an engineer to England to assess the British work. However GE already had an engineer in England doing turbocharger work who had become aware of the Whittle's jet engine work. Starting in July of 1941 details started to be worked out to transfer British Jet engine technology to the US and this was pretty much completed by autumn of 1941.
Early Sept has preliminary drawings of the Whittle W.1X engine in GE's hands and October sees the W.1x engine showup (it had been used for taxi tests of the E28/39) and Drawings of Rover W.2B engine along with 3 personnel from Power Jets. GE gets a contract for 15 engines. At the same time Bell gets a contract for the XP-59 jet fighter.
GE had not received a complete set of drawings for the W.1X engine and GEs initial engines were a combination of features from the W.1X and W.2B engine with some modifications to conform to GE design practices and the substitution of American alloy/s for British ones, most importantly the substitution of Hastelloy B for Nimonic 80.
The First GE engine was run on March 18th 1942 but suffered from compressor stall, first successful run was April 18th 1942.
IN June of 1942 Frank Whittle visits GE withdrawings of the W.2/500 engine and redesigns the compressor casing and diffuser of the GE 1-A engine.
At this point the engine made 1300lbs of thrust but was far from reliable. many engines blowing up on the test stand. It was found that the compressor blades were often cracked. A redesign with fillets where the blades joined the disc solved that problem.
First flight of the XP-59 was made Oct 1st 1942. Engines were rated at 1250lbs and were GE 1-A2s.
Now we get into an overlapping series of engines modifications.
The GE I-14B engine started work in May of 1942 using a new GE compressor housing and diffuser and the Whittle W.2/500 turbine. There was also a new combustion chamber design. It made it's first bench run in Feb 1943 but would not fly until Feb 1944 (?).
In the meantime GE had started work on the I-16 engine with small modifications to simplify production and raise thrust to 1600lbs. It makes it's first bench run April 24th 1943 and soon gives 1625lbs of thrust for a weight of 804lbs. one source says 241 were eventually made. First flight was Aug, 15th 1943 (I have no idea why the early I-14B is listed as flying later)
The I-18 followed with design starting in 25th of May 1943 and first run on Jan 18th 1944 and first flown Nov 1st 1944. thrust was 1800lbs.
The I-20 design started June 9th 1943 and was first run April 21st 1944. it was never test flown.
Probably (but I don't know) because GE was asked to build a 3000lb thrust engine in early 1943 and that was soon changed to a 4,000lb thrust target.
Design work started the same day as the I-20 engine.
This was the first GE engine to use straight through combustion chambers instead of reverse flow. First drawings were ready in Sept of 1943 and manufacture of parts began as soon as the drawings for each part were ready. The engine was ready for testing in Jan of 1944 but wouldn;t run for the first few days. They did get it to run on Jan 13th 1944 but the turbine needed redesign, a new one was built and installed and in Feb 1944 the engine made 4000 lbs thrust on the test stand. (already way ahead of the I-20 engine)
Early service engines were rated at 3850lbs thrust and it did take until June of 1945 to reach a 50 hour pre-flight rating test.
Nobodies early jet engines were very reliable of long lasting.
It took until May of 1946 for the I-40 (now known as the J-33) to pass a 100 hour test, but with the -23 version it was now making 4600lbs of thrust and with water injection 5,400lbs. in later versions the thrust went up even more and in the last version/s (-35) time between overhauls could reach 1,400 hours.
In March of 1941 a committee is formed to explore jet engine propulsion with representatives from Army, Navy, NACA, MIT, John Hopkins and three US turbine manufactures, including GE. General Arnold had excluded American aircraft engine manufacturers considering they already had enough work to do.
In May of 1941 General Arnold is shown the British jet engine and the Gloster E28/39.
All three companies (Allis-Chalmers, GE and Westinghouse) submitted proposals at about the same time, all using axial flow compressors.
General Arnold returns to Washington and requests that GE send an engineer to England to assess the British work. However GE already had an engineer in England doing turbocharger work who had become aware of the Whittle's jet engine work. Starting in July of 1941 details started to be worked out to transfer British Jet engine technology to the US and this was pretty much completed by autumn of 1941.
Early Sept has preliminary drawings of the Whittle W.1X engine in GE's hands and October sees the W.1x engine showup (it had been used for taxi tests of the E28/39) and Drawings of Rover W.2B engine along with 3 personnel from Power Jets. GE gets a contract for 15 engines. At the same time Bell gets a contract for the XP-59 jet fighter.
GE had not received a complete set of drawings for the W.1X engine and GEs initial engines were a combination of features from the W.1X and W.2B engine with some modifications to conform to GE design practices and the substitution of American alloy/s for British ones, most importantly the substitution of Hastelloy B for Nimonic 80.
The First GE engine was run on March 18th 1942 but suffered from compressor stall, first successful run was April 18th 1942.
IN June of 1942 Frank Whittle visits GE withdrawings of the W.2/500 engine and redesigns the compressor casing and diffuser of the GE 1-A engine.
At this point the engine made 1300lbs of thrust but was far from reliable. many engines blowing up on the test stand. It was found that the compressor blades were often cracked. A redesign with fillets where the blades joined the disc solved that problem.
First flight of the XP-59 was made Oct 1st 1942. Engines were rated at 1250lbs and were GE 1-A2s.
Now we get into an overlapping series of engines modifications.
The GE I-14B engine started work in May of 1942 using a new GE compressor housing and diffuser and the Whittle W.2/500 turbine. There was also a new combustion chamber design. It made it's first bench run in Feb 1943 but would not fly until Feb 1944 (?).
In the meantime GE had started work on the I-16 engine with small modifications to simplify production and raise thrust to 1600lbs. It makes it's first bench run April 24th 1943 and soon gives 1625lbs of thrust for a weight of 804lbs. one source says 241 were eventually made. First flight was Aug, 15th 1943 (I have no idea why the early I-14B is listed as flying later)
The I-18 followed with design starting in 25th of May 1943 and first run on Jan 18th 1944 and first flown Nov 1st 1944. thrust was 1800lbs.
The I-20 design started June 9th 1943 and was first run April 21st 1944. it was never test flown.
Probably (but I don't know) because GE was asked to build a 3000lb thrust engine in early 1943 and that was soon changed to a 4,000lb thrust target.
Design work started the same day as the I-20 engine.
This was the first GE engine to use straight through combustion chambers instead of reverse flow. First drawings were ready in Sept of 1943 and manufacture of parts began as soon as the drawings for each part were ready. The engine was ready for testing in Jan of 1944 but wouldn;t run for the first few days. They did get it to run on Jan 13th 1944 but the turbine needed redesign, a new one was built and installed and in Feb 1944 the engine made 4000 lbs thrust on the test stand. (already way ahead of the I-20 engine)
Early service engines were rated at 3850lbs thrust and it did take until June of 1945 to reach a 50 hour pre-flight rating test.
Nobodies early jet engines were very reliable of long lasting.
It took until May of 1946 for the I-40 (now known as the J-33) to pass a 100 hour test, but with the -23 version it was now making 4600lbs of thrust and with water injection 5,400lbs. in later versions the thrust went up even more and in the last version/s (-35) time between overhauls could reach 1,400 hours.
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- Thread starter
- #118
So what`s wrong with that ?
By visiting a good friend in the UK almost every year with my plane he said: Beside all the British planes the Me 262 was a "Beauty".
Which means "schönes Flugzeug" He is a Flight Engineer
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Are you, by any chance, Volke Teske ?
FFS nothing is wrong with that it is just an anecdote, now I see why you had an issue at Hendon, it is because you have an issue in general, especially with facts concerning WW2 jets. You choose to quote this post to start another aspect to your argument and ignore dozens of posts which show what you are saying is nonsense. I will now use the ignore facility because you are driving me NuuuttttttzzzzZZZZZZZ.
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