The first real jet engine

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The J57 was a development of the Pratt & Whitney XT45 (PT4) turboprop engine that was originally intended for the Boeing XB-52. As the B-52 power requirements grew, the design evolved into a turbojet, the JT3. The prestigious Collier Trophy for 1952 was awarded to Leonard S. Hobbs, Chief Engineer of United Aircraft Corporation, for "designing and producing the P&W J57 turbojet engine".[3] On May 25, 1953, a J57-powered YF-100A exceeded Mach 1 on its maiden flight. The engine was produced from 1951 to 1965 with a total of 21,170 built.

One XT57 (PT5), a turboprop development of the J57, was installed in the nose of a JC-124C (BuNo 52-1069), and tested in 1956.[

Pratt & Whitney J57 - Wikipedia
 
Duske said:
Gerhard Neumann was a German, born in Germany. He worked with BRAMO till 1939 by receiving the knowlegde of constructing jet engines. At that time BRAMO did produce the radial one of von Oheim. In october 1938 Messerschmitt received order building a Jet. Messerschmidt had worked on that project long before - it received the order number P 1065. He then contacted BRAMO for a slim Jet engine.
Neumann was a part of it.
Thats why he was able constructing within a short time the J 57. He did not help constructing the J 57 - he was the leader of the J 57 programm. Due to the great success he reached with the J 57 he became the director of General Electric. His last visit to Germany he made in 1997 by being invited opening up 2 air.museum under his name. In China he worked for the US on radial egines only.
Everyone in US-Aviation knows about Hermann the German regardless whether you like it or not. I did live in the States for six years.

Why did you people send the week Whittle one to the US when having a good running axial Jet engine in spare ? NONSENSE !
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By May of 1939 he was in Hong Kong. How long did it take him to get there?
How many jet engines did Bramo Make in 1939?
Or in 1938? and what type?
I worked at P & W for four years, doesn't mean I can design any kind of jet engine.

I also never knew the P-40s he worked in in china had radial engines.
Curtiss+P-40+Flying+Tigers+0012.jpg

Must have been a very clever disguise.

Unfortunately almost everything you say is not true and it is getting very hard to ferret what, if anything, is true in your posts.
 
Duske said:
Why did you people send the week Whittle one to the US when having a good running axial Jet engine in spare ? NONSENSE !
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And still you refuse to answer my straightforward question...but I'll answer yours for you. The Tizard Mission which took the Whittle jet technology to the US was in September 1940. Exactly how many operational jet aircraft existed ANYWHERE at that time?

You need to look more closely at the timelines for the events you're discussing. You're mixing up events from 1940 and 1945 without clearly identifying the point you're trying to make.

PLEASE will you stick to a single story and timeline and pay the common courtesy of backing up your comments about British jet engine development with some facts rather than just your own opinions.
 
Duske, the basis of your argument seems to be that until 1944 the British were producing centrifugal type jets then shortly after that they produced axial flow jets, so the British must have reverse engineered the Jumo 004. Well the Russians were experts at reverse engineering. They reverse engineered the Nene and the Jumo 004. The Nene as the Klimov VK-1 and its derivatives went on to power 18,000 Mig 15s and 10,000 Mig 17s. The Jumo 004 as the Klimov RD 10 powered 280 Yak 15s.

Reverse engineering a jet engine is not easy, it is easy to copy the dimensions, the problem is the metallurgy and other technologies like lubricants and operating parameters/conditions. It took the Russians as long to reverse engineer the Nene as it took them to do the same to the B 29. This was mainly because the metallurgy of creep resistant high strength turbine blades is very, very special, getting hold of one is one thing, it doesn't tell you how to make it.

The British had no need to copy a Jumo 004 (as others have pointed out), they had an axial flow jet, the Metropolitan Vickers F2 which ran in 1941, and while this was not adopted it was eventually developed into the Sapphire which powered the Hawker Hunter, HP Victor and Gloster Javelin. Talk of speeds over Mach 1 in relation to the Jumo 004 is beyond fantasy,
 
pbehn said:
The British had no need to copy a Jumo 004 (as others have pointed out), they had an axial flow jet, the Metropolitan Vickers F2 which ran in 1941, and while this was not adopted it was eventually developed into the Sapphire which powered the Hawker Hunter, HP Victor and Gloster Javelin. Talk of speeds over Mach 1 in relation to the Jumo 004 is beyond fantasy,
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Thanks for this input, pbehn. How on earth did the Jumo 004 influence a British design that first ran in 1941? It's pure fantasy. I'm also confused by Duske's continued reference to the "week" (Sp...presume he means weak) Whittle engine. Looking at the tables below and it seems to me that the W-2 spanks the Jumo 004B in pretty much every category that is directly comparable:

Jumo 004B Performance

Power Jets W-2 Performance

Now, the W-2 may well have lacked development potential but as an operational jet engine dating from the early 1940s, I know which one I'd say was "weak"...and it's not the W-2!
 
wuzak said:
The J57 was a development of the Pratt & Whitney XT45 (PT4) turboprop engine that was originally intended for the Boeing XB-52. As the B-52 power requirements grew, the design evolved into a turbojet, the JT3. The prestigious Collier Trophy for 1952 was awarded to Leonard S. Hobbs, Chief Engineer of United Aircraft Corporation, for "designing and producing the P&W J57 turbojet engine".[3] On May 25, 1953, a J57-powered YF-100A exceeded Mach 1 on its maiden flight. The engine was produced from 1951 to 1965 with a total of 21,170 built.

One XT57 (PT5), a turboprop development of the J57, was installed in the nose of a JC-124C (BuNo 52-1069), and tested in 1956.[

Pratt & Whitney J57 - Wikipedia
Click to expand...
Pratt sounds Teutonic
Whitney probably from Saarland
Hobbs were a toy making family originating near Dortmund
Collier famous Stuttgart dynasty
Boeing were cattle traders in Bremen before going to USA.
Griffith's were potato pickers from Lower Saxony while the Whittles were street sweepers in Dusseldorf.
 
BiffF15 said:
I think someone is yanking your collective chains...
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Possibly, but in my many years in Germany I did meet one young man who was convinced Prussia had invented everything and that once they were free from the shackles of Germany they would rule the world again.
 
Duske said:
Correct ! Herrman the German did design the J 79 engine of General-Electric. The most famous axial Jet engine ever - even used in the B 52 and in all other fighters of the USAF. But then he made a mistake by disigning an oversized afterburner which did lead to 15o crashes of the F 104 Starfighter and 126 killed German pilots.
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The B-52 used Pratt&Whitney engines. So did the F-100, F-101, F-102, F-106, F-8 Crusader, F4D Skyray, later models of the A-4, the F9F Panther and Cougar, the C-135, the 707, the DC-8 ....

The first twin-spool engine, the JT3C is probably more famous.

Gerhard Neuman -- "Herman the German" -- emigrated from Germany before WW2. See, for example, Gerhard Neumann - Wikipedia, and Neumann, Gerhard - National Aviation Hall of Fame. Had he stayed he Germany, he probably would have been murdered as his parents were Jewish.
 
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Duske said:
Sir Whittle and the German Franz von Oheim did develop the first so called jet engine but which did not lead us into the jet age at all.

No airliner of today is using the radial jet engine of Whittle and von Oheim !

Both developed the radial jet engine at the same time by not knowing of each other. After WW 2 both became friend.

At the end the radial one was no more increaseable in power - due to it`s single compressor. The only compressor had to be huge so we received the wide-body jet engine of

the Meteor and the MIG 15. The MIG 17 could increase speed only by using the first afterburner - disigned by the Junkers Factory/Germany in 1944.

The start of the real jet age: It began in 1939 in Germany. The BRAMO-Factory near Berlin producing the Siemens-Radial engine since long for light aircraft.

was forced into the production of a very new jet engine, as BMW and Junckers too, the axial jet engine. The one which drives every airliner of today. It is called the straight-air-through jet engine. While the radial one of Whittle and von Oheim was just a try - no more. By having captured the first Me 262 in 1945 Rollce Royce

stopped the production of the radial one immediately - and did copy further on the German axial jet engine. At least it`s proved by historian.



Reason of all till the change to the axial jet engine of today: Willy Messerschmitt was the founder of the real jet engine of today as he needed for his Me 262 a narrow jet engine with a diameter of no more then 60 cm. The wide body radial engine of Franz von Oheim would not fit under the wings of his Me 262.

BRAMO (Brandenburgische Motorenwerke) agreed by designing a 12 stage compressor to the front of the burning chambers. The axial jet engine was born and is still in the

use of every todays airliner. Rolls-Royce and Russia had to increase the compressor diameter only for getting a more powerful engine - reaching Mach 2 and more.
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It may have been the Jumo 002 which became the Heinkel Hirth HeS 006.

In Germany development of jet engines began in airframe companies Heinkel and Junkers. It was the same in the USA with Lockheed's L1000

The RLM Stripped the right of these airframe companies to develop engines. Heinkel stayed in the game by buying an engine company called Hirth at 50% over share market price where the development of von Ohains and Hahns could continue with official sanction. The Junkers Jumo 002 was abandoned but the team also went to Heinkel Hirth and resurrected the Jumo 002 as the HeS 006.

Jumo then started the Famous Jumo 004 using a new team with a turbo charger background.

The Heinkel Hirth HeS 006 was based on the Jumo 002 designed by Adolf Müller of the Airframe division of Junkers. The engine division JUnkers MOtoren or Jumo had nothing to do with developing jet engines initially, it was the RLM that decided that airframe manufacturers shouldn't develop jet engines so Adolf Müller moved to Heinkel and the Austrian Turbo charger espert Franz Anselm started to develop the Jumo 004. Heinkel, an airframe manufacturer, faced been sidelined as well so Ernst Heinkel brought the company Hirth Motoren at 50% above market value so that he could claim to be an engine manufacturer and continue to develop the jet engine that had in fact been invented by his companies patronage of von Ohain.

Adolf Müller's Jumo 002 that became the Heinkel Hirth HeS 006 was far more capable than the Jumo 004. It used a 50% reaction compressor that was 10%-15% more efficient and required only 5 stages to achieve the same compression ratio as the jumo 004.

As a result it had 50% of the weight for the same thrust. In fact it wasn't beaten in terms of frontal area vs thrust and weight versus thrust by anyengine till 1947 and weighed only 390kg versus the 740kg of the jumo.

There are two types of axial compressor: reaction type where the pressure build up is both over rotor and stator and impulse where the stator is only a guide vane. Reaction types need machining because of tolerances instead of stamping. The Jumo 004 used impulse type HeS 006 reaction type.
 
:D

Duske said:
Sir Whittle and the German Franz von Oheim did develop the first so called jet engine but which did not lead us into the jet age at all.

No airliner of today is using the radial jet engine of Whittle and von Oheim !
Click to expand...

Wow. This is BS, within the first two sentences there are inaccuracies - I fear what follows from this guy is utter rubbish - we've seen it all before. Fanboy comes out from under the covers and blurts out a string of unverifiable untruths that everyone will, for pages to come present evidence to disprove, to no avail - and I haven't even read through the thread. You just can't argue against these morons.

Regarding the above sentence, utter tripe, because almost all Pratt & Whitney Canada's turboprops employ centrifugal compressors, from the PT-6 to the PW100 series. Look them up to see just how many aircraft types these engines power.

Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6 - Wikipedia

Pratt & Whitney Canada PW100 - Wikipedia
 
When, in 1938, Bramo was asked to investigate jet propulsion their first response was a motorjet - a ducted fan driven by a Bramo radial engine. This actually flew in a Focke Wulf Fw 44.

A further development of this was to add afterburning. But, with poor results on the test stand, the project was cancelled.

Bramo began investigating a turbojet design in late 1938. They had a free choice for type of compressor - they could use a centrifugal, straight axial or counter-rotating axial compressor.

They chose to develop the straight axial flow turbine, this being viewed as a research engine for the counter-rotating engine. Bramo developed the compressor and added am axial turbine with air cooled blades, which had been developed by BMW using their turbocharger experience.

The counter-rotating compressor engine had the official project designation of 109-002. Individual stages of the compressor were built and tested, but it was soon realised that the concept was going to be very difficult to make work. Work was abandoned on this engine in 1942. Note that Griffith had designed, built and tested a counter-rotating axial compressor a few years prior.

Bramo was now part of BMW, and the straight axial design was to become the basis for the BMW 003.

BMW, for its part, had started its turbojet experience by designing one with a two stage centrifugal compressor and axial turbine.

Note that most turbojets, even Whittle's used axial turbines. Von Ohain's original turbojets used a radial turbine.
 
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*WHISTLE*

Sorry boys, the following will report to the penalty box for two minutes on the infraction of clouding the issue with facts:

wuzak
nuuumann
pbehn
koopernic
buffnut453
tomo pauk
Graeme
ShortRound6
fubar57 and Swampyankee

Your continued use of verifiable facts that are well documented have landed you time in the sin bin.

I'd add Flyboy but he has those intimidating "Moderator" tags, so he gets a pass...

Obviously I am exempt.
 
I notice the OP has gone ominously silent. I'm tending to align with Biff15's thinking that this was just a trolling exercise. Still, at least I learned something from those who actually provided substantiated facts...so thank you, gents, for expanding my knowledge of early jet development.
 
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