The Great P-47 Range Debate on you tube now. (2 Viewers)

[SaparotRob]

I just wing it.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Hi Daniel - good presentation and general comments. I also agree your closing remarks about Greg. He IS a good guy, but I agree that he ingested some theories from Telenko and Stephenson/Sprey that were astonishly dis-engaged from the historical record. I sent him Study 136 and the A2069 Reel before the debate to bring him up to speed but he only cherry picked the July 1943 memo from Kenney and the now infamous May 1939 memo regarding Arnold's instruction to not deliver/pay for the P-36A with drop tanks, but permitting investment by Curtiss at their own expense.

I'm still searching but believe that the P-36's in the Philippines were delivered and equipped with racks.

There were no P-36s in the Philippines.
There were P-35A, which were embargoed EP-106/J-9 built for Sweden.

 

[BiffF15]

AFHRA reel B0302 page 1472

348th Fighter Group, Operation of P-47 type airplane with 305 gallon internal tanks, 200 gallon external belly tank.

Patrol missions, 4 to 4.5 hours, 16 or more airplanes.
1. Climb 18,000 feet, 33 inches HG, 2300 RPM, 170 mph, 500 feet/minute
2. Climb 18,000 to 25,000 feet, 36 inches HG, 2450 RPM, 170 mph, 500 feet/minute
3. Climb above 25,000 feet, 38 inches HG, 2500 RPM, 170 mph, 500 feet/minute
4. Level cruise to 25,000 feet, 30 inches HG, 2000 RPM, 200 mph (IAS?)
5. Level cruise above 25,000 feet, 31 inches HG, 2000 RPM, 190 mph (IAS?)
6. Climb to 20,000 feet on straight line at settings will take formation approximately 150 miles from base in 45 minutes.
7. Average gasoline consumption (auto lean above 8,000 feet)
a) Climb to 25,000 feet 125 to 150 gallons per hour
b) Level cruise 80 to 100 gallons per hour
c) Average for mission 100 to 110 gallons per hour
8. Radius of action 300 miles maximum, allowing for 20 minutes combat and reserve of 50 gallons.

Escort missions, 3 to 3.5 hours, 16 or more airplanes.
1. Same settings as above only formation has to weave constantly after levelling off to stay with bomber formation.
2. Over target air speed is increased to 250 mph, 35 inches HG and 2450 RPM, continually weaving and changing altitude within 1,000 to 1,500 feet to off set enemy anti aircraft fire.
3. Gasoline consumption is increased slightly, averaging 100 to 120 gallons per hour
4. Radius of 300 miles maximum, allowing for 20 minutes combat and reserve of 50 gallons.

Patrol missions, 4 to 4.5 hours, 4 ship flight.
1. Same settings as larger patrol missions
2. Average gasoline consumption 95 to 105 gallons per hour
3. Radius of action of 300 miles gives 45 to 60 minutes over target.

end information from page 1472, from another source 20 minutes combat allowance was 89 gallons, add 50 for reserves leaves a maximum of 166 gallons for return flight. It is the internal fuel remaining after combat that determines combat radius.

Case History of Fighter Plane Range Extension Program, Parts I and II," USAF Historical Research Document 202.2-11, 22 February 1945, Enclosure 1." Gives the distance covered by a P-47D climbing to 25,000 feet as 57 miles clean, 81 miles with 300 gallons of external fuel, which would indicate 150 miles (about the distance from Cambridge to the European Coast) is a slow climb.

Back to reel B0302
348th Fighter Group, activity 25 July 1943 to 31 January 1944 inclusive, missions are by squadrons, not by group
341 missions 3,339 sorties escorting transports
129 missions 1,849 sorties escorting bombers
113 missions 858 sorties intercept
281 missions 2,562 sorties patrol
18 missions 68 sorties strafing
19 missions 136 sorties escorting PBY
14 missions 59 sorties escorting Photo
664 missions 1,816 sorties miscellaneous (including courier, dropping missions, covering small boats, ferrying and cross country flights within combat zone etc.)

Total 10,687 sorties, the USAAF operating out of Britain had 25,897 airborne sorties August 1943 to January 1944, to support the USAAF effort apart from imports from the US, in December 1943 the British produced 5,943 Paper composition and 3,095x90 Imperial/108 US Gallon, Metal composition, this appears to be perhaps twice the total production of Brisbane tanks. Then again the US started supplying P-47 external tanks to the Pacific as well as Europe and the wing rack P-47 were on the way on late 1943.

348th Fighter Group Claims
11 October 1943, sweep, Wewak, 4 P-47, sighted 39 fighters and 12 bombers, 5 to 15,000 feet, claimed 9 fighters
12 October 1943, sweep Wewak, 4 P-47, sighted 1 Dinah, 5,000 feet, claimed it destroyed
16 October 1943, sweep Wewak, 4 P-47, sighted 2 fighters, 18,000 feet, claimed 1.
19 October 1943, sweep Wewak, 4 P-47, sighted 6 Petes, taking off, claimed 6.
22 October 1943, bomber escort Wewak, 8 P-47, sighted 7 fighters, 5,000 feet, claimed 3, lost 1 P-47.
5 November 1943, sweep Wewak, 4 P-47, sighted 12 fighters and 15 other aircraft, 12,600 to 16,000 feet, claimed 6 fighters.
7 November 1943, sweep Wewak, 4 P-47, sighted 5 fighters, 22,000 feet, claimed 4 fighters.
15 November 1943, bomber escort Wewak, 15 P-47, sighted 15/20 fighters, 8,000 feet, claimed 5 fighters.
25 November 1943, sweep Wewak, 4 P-47, sighted 1 Dinah, 18,000 feet, claimed it destroyed

Unfortunately the reel only contains the summary history, not mission lists.

Google maps gives Tsili Tsili to Wewak as 292 miles.

Roger Freeman, B-17F at 55,000 pounds, 1,760 gallons of fuel, 8th Air Force, take off and climb to 25,000 feet 380 gallons, 320 miles to target 695 gallons, return and landing leaving 115 gallons in tanks. The penalties for fast climbs and large, tight formations, given the official range was 2,000 miles.

In terns of cruise, Spitfire I at 15,000 feet with 84 gallons of fuel, range cruising at 304 mph, 484 miles, at 180 to 190 mph, 575 miles.

Are you talking nautical or statue miles?

 

[SaparotRob]

Are you talking nautical or statue miles?

I think he means flyer miles.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

I go with whatever the USAAF normally defined the mile as in WWII, which I believe is statute, that is 5,280 feet or 5,279.9894 US Survey feet, rather than Nautical (British) 6,080 feet, or Nautical (international) 6,076.1155 feet. And let us not go near the statute mile is also 8,000 Gunter's Links or 0.1609344 Myriameters.

A Slug is 1 Geepound or 32.174 avdp. pounds, give your weight in gee I have lost the pounds. Those unliked can be so many slugs. Remind them fluid scruples are 20 minims and you take your fuel in firkins off the pump.

Pagination is from the AFHRA Reel B0302 PDF, the original microfilm pagination is at the bottom of the page, at the start of the 348th records microfilm 1553 = PDF 1469.

page 1659, June 1944, installation of VHF radio. Notes, P1471-6 tactics, p1693-4 drop tanks, p1818 for 6 November 1943 combat report.

 

[SaparotRob]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=9&v=Y9XcWqBl8Xs