The Greatest Air Battle

[drgondog]

Erich and Bill, from those dates you posted which would be the one that you would chose as the most intense, action-packed, incredible from the lot of them? I know Erich helped me with January 11 when I first signed on and that was pretty brutal. I want to get a handle on what specific action you would say interests you the most or that you admire the most from both sides perspective as regarding heorism, intensity, skill or anything that stands out for you.

In terms of sheer numbers the Nov 2, 1944 engagements or Nov 26 would be high on the list of ETO in which very large numbers of attacking LW fighters were in same airspace with one, then two then three 8th AF Fighter groups in the same battle.

In terms of US fighters outnumberered but scrambling around in bad weather and clouds against a much larger LW force, and shooting down 40+, but losing 27 B-17s to flak, fighters and scrambling to Switzerland, I would go with the April 24, 1944 battle around Munich. That was one helluva fight and the B-17s did heavy damage to Do 335 plant at Oberpfaffenhofen west of Munich. What I really liked is the disciplne shown by Dregne (357Gp leader) and Dix (355Gp leader) in this fight. They were dribbling sections at a time rather than committing entire squadrons in trying to stave off determined attacks by more than 200+ s/e plus another 20+ t/e fighters concentrated in that area around Munich.

The day could have been worse than Berlin or Schweinfurt if the discipline was broken down.

The problem I have with Jan 11 is that the escort fighter strength for 8th FC was so small the the t/e NJG were able to score with near impunity w/o being molested and they took a heavy toll. By the time 4/24 took place few Me 110/210/410 could survive... and the LW had a lot of experienced fighter pilots and leaders intact. March 6, Big B, was another hellacious battle as the Mustang strength was growing but LW still very strong that deep.

After April 29, the LW was still able to hammer one Bomb Wing or Bomb Group but never able to really punish 8th BC again with 5+% losses

 

[Erich]

I can't seem to come up with a specific action at the moment, if I dig out the stuff am sure re-reading through US bomber group missions reports will surely click something in me. Nov 26 has a special meaning since I lost cousin KIA on it and of course have quite a bit of data.

let me look for each of what I posted up

 

[drgondog]

I can't seem to come up with a specific action at the moment, if I dig out the stuff am sure re-reading through US bomber group missions reports will surely click something in me. Nov 26 has a special meaning since I lost cousin KIA on it and of course have quite a bit of data.

let me look for each of what I posted up

Jan 14, 1945 over Berlin was another great single unit (357FG) battle

 

[Erich]

here is some simple info I put on a draft sheet many years ago through studies of some of the Fall 1944 missions of the USAF vs the LW.

Sept. 11, 1944

92nd lost 8-11 due to Sturm attacks
100th lost 11 to JG 4 Sturm attacks and from III./JG 4 109's.

Sept. 12, 1944

306th loses 8 from Sturm attacks from IV.Sturm/JG 3
351st loses 6 from II.Sturm/JG 300 and 109s from JG 53
493rd loses 9 plus from JG 4 Sturms and III./JG 4

September 28

303rd loses 11 from Sturm attacks from IV.Sturm/JG 3
379th loses 2
384th loses 2
457th loses 7

October 6

94th loses 4 to Fw 190A's
385th loses 10 to Fw 190A's for both all from Sturm attacks

October 7

94th loses 8 to Sturm attacks

November 2nd

91st loses 13 to Sturm attacks
457th loses 9 plus to Sturm attacks

November 21st

398th loses 12-15 bombers

November 26th

445th loses 5 to JG 301, Sturm attacks in Schwarm size
491st loses 16 to JG 301

December 24th

487th loses 9 to Sturm attacks from IV.Sturm/JG 3

units given are certain through correspondance with surviving LW pilots and US bomber crewmen plus interviews and text from bomb group association reps.

on 14th of January the US 357th fg made a name for themselves, and JG 300 felt the sting as did JG 301

9 bombers lost from the 390th bg.

 

[Bluehawk]

Battle of Britain, no doubt whatsoever... as to numbers and intensity involved, and as to consequences of victory.

 

[drgondog]

Battle of Britain, no doubt whatsoever... as to numbers and intensity involved, and as to consequences of victory.

BoB got my vote as most important with Midway second but I wouldn't remotely consider either one for 'intensity'..

Dunkirk and Dieppe and Marianas and Bodenplatte and November 2/26 and the battle over Berlin on Jan 14, 1945 all rank high in terms of sheer 'intensity' of numbers, clashes and aircraft falling out of the sky in a short period of time.

 

[Erich]

I think the BoB is more like a struggle since it was over many days and not really a singular event, you may disagree and that is fine but in my brain a one day aerial engagement constitutes a battle in the air

2 centos

 

[drgondog]

I think the BoB is more like a struggle since it was over many days and not really a singular event, you may disagree and that is fine but in my brain a one day aerial engagement constitutes a battle in the air

2 centos

I totally agree - even midway and marianas were days whereas the rest of the ones we are talking about were compressed into minutes...

 

[Njaco]

I think the BoB is more like a struggle since it was over many days and not really a singular event, you may disagree and that is fine but in my brain a one day aerial engagement constitutes a battle in the air

Bingo! Thats what I was looking for! Not to discredit Kursk and the others but that says what I was looking for.

Thanks Erich!

 

[pbfoot]

Still would like some more votes for Dieppe 160 aircraft lost in 7hrs is not chump change and it was mostly fighters . Of note thats where the P51 and Typhoon had their first kills

 

[Glider]

Still would like some more votes for Dieppe 160 aircraft lost in 7hrs is not chump change and it was mostly fighters . Of note thats where the P51 and Typhoon had their first kills

It's interesting that the debate is always on the fighters.
The most important question in any battle, land, sea or air is who achieved their objective.

Did the German fighters effectively escort the bombers so they could attack the allied forces with some success, I don't believe so.
Did the Luftwaffe stop the landing taking place, no.
Did the Luftwaffe have any serious impact or influence on the land battle, no.
Did the Luftwaffe sink or even seriously damage any large landing craft or escorting naval vessel, before, during or after the landing, no.
Did the RAF have any impact on the landing, and cover the withdrawal yes.

Did the Luftwaffe shoot down more RAF fighters than they lost, clearly the answer is yes, but which side achieved their objective?

It isn't as straight forward an assumption as people may believe.

 

[Njaco]

Thats true Glider but wouldn't that be for a "Most Successful battle" thread? I just wanted to hear what battle got people's juices flowing.

And Pb, you're right and I'm so sorry that I didn't include it until after you voted. And I should have made this public. First poll. duh!!

 

[Glider]

Your right Njaco, my apology

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Grea thread, I still can't decide what battle to vote for. Boddenplatte is good, but there were a lot of horrendous bomber missions as well. Black Thursday the worst for the Allies, and "Big Week" a bad one for the Germans, where B-17's, B-24's and P-51's and other fighters fought the Germans over the Third Reich, and destroyed 17 percent of their best pilots.

Losses were pretty high for the Allies, but after that week German air power was diminished and they never regained air superiority on the Western Front again.

 

[Njaco]

I'm gonna see if I can post some particulars about each battle andgive an idea of each.

Glider, its all good!

 

[Njaco]

Guess I'll start with the day I thought was pretty rough.

"The Hardest Day"

Luftwaffe plans called for Do 17s, Ju 88s and He 111s to attack the airfields at Kenley and Biggin Hill for the first attack of the day. While most of the bombers were to attack at about 12,000 feet, a staffel of Do 17s were to fly in at tree-top level and attack a few minures after the intial raid. The 2d raid of the day was Ju 87s against the airfields at Ford, Gosport and Thorney Island along with the radar site at Poling. The last attack of the day was against the airfields at Hornchurch and North Weald. All raids to be escorted with almost all the fighters from Luftflotte 2 and 3.
....The attack against Kenley was in 3 phases: 12 Ju 88s of II./KG 76 escorted by 20 Bf 109s from JG 51 were to attack followed 5 minutes later by 27 Do 17s from I./KG 76 and III./KG 76 escorted by 25 Bf 110s from ZG 26. Five minutes after these attacks, 9 D0 17s from 9./KG 76 were to run in unescorted at very low altitude and finish off the airfield. Biggin Hill was to be attacked by 60 He 111s of KG 1 at the same time as Kenley. The whole attack was to be preceeded by a free hunt by 60 Bf 109s from JG 3 and III./JG 26.
....Things went badly from the start. While the first formation of bombers took off, bad weather forced a delay. By the time the 9 Do 17s of 9./KG 76 took off, instead of being the follow up formation they became the lead formation. They crossed the coast and spread out at about 500 feet and bore into the airfield. 12 Hurricanes from RAF No. 111 Sqdrn bounced them and then pulled away when the flak defenses opened up. one Hurricane was lost. As the Dorniers crossed the airfield, a new British innovation was used, paachute and cable launchers. Shot into the sky, cables were extended from the ground and held aloft by parachutes, the hope being that an airplane would snag the cable. This new invention caught one bomber and it crashed. Once clear of the airfield, the formation was bounced again by Hurricanes from No. 111 Sqdrn who came around the airfield to attack. When over, only 3 bombers were able to make a whells down landing and one by the navigator after the pilot was killed.
....The high altitude bombers against Kenely were also having problems. Hurricanes from RAF No. 615 Sqdrn went after the bombers as RAF No. 32 Sqdrn took on the escorts followed by RAF No. 64 Sqdrn. 4 Ju 88s and 6 Do 17s were lost while Kenley suffered severe damage. The attack on Biggin Hill was intercepted by only one squadron of Spitfires who tangled with the Bf 109s of JG 54, leaving the bombers unmolested.
....After this first raid, the second was mounted. In the largest attack by Stukas, 109 Ju 87s from StG 3 and StG 77 escorted by 150 Bf 109s went after the coastal airfields and radar station. Intercepted by Spitfires and Hurricanes as they pulled out of their dives, the Stukas were hit hard. 10 were destroyed and 5 seriuosly damaged out of 28 from I./StG 77 alone. The raid hardly affected the airfields and radar.
..... For the day the Luftwaffe lost 71 aircraft while the British lost 27 fighters.

 

[kool kitty89]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but I think September 7, 1940 of the BoB is pretty significant, and intense as well with the massive numbers involved.

September 15 may have effectively marked the British air victory for the battle, but the 7th was the beginning of the Battle over London. (the date was also important iirc because the British had expected the begining of a German invasion) The shock in the change of tactics and the belated realization of the tru target made it pretty Chaotic for the RAF to accomplish anything.

I'm not sure I'd choose it though, given some of the others, but as for a single day in the BoB I think it could be the most confusing. (though it could be argued that the whole period of fighting of the 7th to the 15th could be the duration of that battle -being distinct from the parts of the BoB-)


Then again, maybe the 7th really didn't allow for much action for the RAF so the intensity wouldn't be the same as with the other 2 selected days. (or at least I haven't read much about specific actions of the RAF on the 7th other than "there was very little they could do")

 

[Njaco]

I was split between the 7th and 15th. The 7th was rough.

 

[pbfoot]

Dieppe
At 04.30 the first two wings of the air umbrella, those of Kenley and Northolt, took off. Fifteen minutes later, eight other squadrons were airborne. At 04.50 Sqn.-Ldr. du Vivier led his twelve 43 Squadron Hurricanes in a line abreast low-level cannon strike on the beach defences -- opening the main Dieppe assault. The gunners of the 13th Flak Division, however, caused severe damage to, or loss ot, seven of 43's aircraft. At 05.12 the four bombarding destroyers opened fire on the buildings lining the promenade. While 226 Squadron's Bostons laid smoke-screens, four squadrons of Hurricane 11Cs and 11Bs hedgehopped over the beach, spraying cannon fire and dropping 250-lb. bombs on the German defensive positions with a precision that aroused the admiration of the enemy commander. However, though the cannon fire did keep the defenders' heads down, the few bombs dropped had hardly any effect at all -- and when they were gone the Germans merely re-commenced fire. Heavy and accurate AA fire was encountered, but despite a flak explosion which shattered his jaw, Flt.-Lt. J. F. Scott led his Blenheims on to lay smoke on the East Headland. By 05.15 the air attack was in full swing with Spitfires and 88 Squadron Bostons attacking Batteries 7/302 (behind the West Headland), B/302, and those inland. Then the beach supporting fire and bombing ceased just before the first landing craft touched land at 05.23. The German defences, virtually intact, immediately chopped the main assault force to pieces. On the beaches all control of the situation was lost and with but a few exceptions, the assault was pinned down. However, with the beaches covered in smoke screens and due to a monumental communications break-down, the Force Commanders were to be quite unaware of the real situation for the next three hours, and were to act accordingly till then.

Mist over Jagdgeschwader 26's airfields had precluded immediate action, but JG 2 was clear and the first Luftwaffe sortie, a reconnaisanee to the North West of Dieppe, was off at 05.30. At first only a few German fighters were up, though 71 Squadron shot one of them down as one of the first kills of the day. Between 05.45 and 05.55, the Hornchurch and Biggin Hill Wings became airborne, while elements of their chief adversary, JG 26, joined the fray shortly after 06.00. Before the Hornchurch Wing could intervene, Fw 190s shot down three 174 Squadron Hurricanes (including the CO) which were covering Bostons. The Biggin Wing had a brush with Focke-Wulfs and Lt. Junkin of the 307th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, scored the first USAAF kill in the European theatre of operations. At 06.10 the North Weald (Norwegian) Wing began to taxi out. Over Dieppe, Capt. Bjorn Raeder became separated and fought a single-handed action against eight Fw 190s until he disengaged over the Channel and crash-landed in England. Meamvhile, Bostons were bombing the inland Batteries, A/302 and 256. Just behind the latter attack, at Arques-la-Bataille, six Hurricanes went in to attack the 110th Divisional HQ supposedly there. It was not, and four Hurricanes were lost, crashing into the town, killing their pilots and eight civilians. Further main beach landings at 07.05 were only covered by a Hurricane cannon strike on the East Headland, while the smoke-laying aircraft were back at base -- the landing was non-scheduled and the air plan too rigid to allow for adequate immediate cover.

By 07.00 there were only about thirty German fighters in the air and Leigh-Mallory was disappointed. Oblt. Sepp Wurmheller of JG 2, despite a broken leg in plaster, was in action, though he was soon forced to crash on a beach. Later that day, he shot down seven Spitfires and a Blenheim. While Hurricanes searched with MGBs for F-boats in the Channel, 10 (Jabo) JG 26's Fw 190A-4/U8s attacked isolated British ships, though with less success than they claimed. Elements of (F)122 and/or (F)123 also scouted the Channel, looking for another possible British attack force, while the Tactical Reconnaissance Mustangs flew deep into France looking for German reinforcements. Approximately every twenty minutes sections of Hurricanes arrived for ground support patrols over Dieppe, with Bostons at longer intervals. Around 08.30 the first German bomber made its appearance - there now being some fifty Luftwaffe aircraft up.

About 09.00 the Force Commanders became aware of the true situation on the beaches and the withdrawal order, Vanquish, was given for 10.30. However, Air Commodore Cole was forced to point out that the RAF's time table only allowed for a maximum effort to cover Vanquish at 11.00. His point made and accepted, Cole informed Uxbridge at 10.04 that smoke screens would be required over the main beaches for the evacuation from 11.00 for half an hour at least. At 10.10 the final softening up of the indestructible headlands began, and was kept up for 30 minutes by twenty-four Bostons and twenty-two Hurri-bombers: an assault that was too soon and too short.

By 10.00 the German bombers had arrived in force and the Luftwaffe had committed over a hundred aircraft to battle over Dieppe at any one time -- meeting Fighter Command's challenge. With the job of air cover foremost, the RAF was soon paying a high price for maintaining its superlative and near-impregnable air umbrella over the main assault force. It was losing aircraft because its Spitfire VBs (not to mention tactics) were outclassed by the Fw l9OAs and Bf l09Fs, but they were stopping the German bombers from getting at the ships and the beaches. Thus for all its victories, the Luftwaffe was losing the air battle of Dieppe.

At 10.30 twenty-two out of a force of twenty-four B-17E Boeings of the 97th Bomb Group, 8th USAAF, carried out accurate though indecisive bombing of Abbeville-Drucat airfield as a diversion. Ever since 10.00, Luftwaffe fighter reserves between Flushing and Beaumont le Roger had been put on the alert, while bomber forces from Holland to Beauvais were steadily being committed to battle. The Typhoon Wing flew a diversionary feint to Ostend, then over Le Treport they bounced some Fw l90s, damaging three. But two Typhoons failed to pull out of their dives when their tails snapped off. In the end, some nine Spitfire squadrons were sent into the area to stop the bombers reaching Dieppe. The North Weald Wing on their second sortie shot down eight of nine unescorted Do 217Es. Returning over the Channel, a frantic "Look out 190 approaching 3 o'clock!" caused Lt. Kristensen, Yellow One, to whip round and fire a short, effective burst. The 190 burst into flames and dived inverted into the Channel -- it was only then that they realised that it was a Typhoon ... R7815 of 266 Squadron, the pilot being killed.

Back at Dieppe, "Vanquish" was going badly. As 226 Squadron's Bostons laid dense smoke screens on the headlands and along the waterfront at 11.00 to cover the withdrawal, Luftwaffe bomber reinforcements arrived in strength and pressed home their bombardment of the beaches and together with the German gunners turned the evacuation into a worse massacre than Dunkirk. At 11.15 43 Squadron's Hurricanes attacked the East Headland, but five minutes later a call came from the beach for more smoke and air support. Again at 11.35 and 11.38, calls came in to the effect that the beaches were under tremendous fire and evacuation was impossible under such conditions. Uxbridge was inundated with calls for more bombing. Hurri-bombers were on the way, but would only arrive at noon.

At Pourville the remnants of the attack on the West Headland were being evacuated under increasing attack from both shore and air. Fw 1 90s strafed while Ju 88s were subsequently reported as "flame thrower aircraft" (early napalm?). The RAF, however, were fully engaged over Dieppe, and could not give cover here.

At last the Hurricane 11Bs arrived over Dieppe at 12.00, and their attacks kept some German gunners' heads down while Spitfires kept at bay the dogged attempts of Ju 88s, Do 217s and a few He 111s to intervene. At 12.43 three Bostons laid a last smoke screen in the face of heavy AA fire from the Royal Navy. Just after 13.00, however, the survivors on the beaches were forced to surrender -- though, as late as 13.45, RAF attacks were belatedly still going in on the Headlands and beaches, killing several Canadians who were now POWs.

Heading for England now were some 200 vessels in close convoy with the inevitable stragglers behind. With a renewed effort, the Luftwaffe tried to inflict more casualties. For the RAF fighter pilots flying their third, fourth or even fifth sorties of the day, this was the last challenge. Tn addition to the general air cover provided, eighty-six additional patrols were put up to intercept specific attacks. Only one incident was to mar what was otherwise a near-perfect essay into fighter cover. At the tail end of the convoy a free-for-all was developing over the last ships getting into station. At 13.08 a section of three Do 217s, though harried unmercifully by Spitfires, pressed home their attack. Just after 13.14, one bomb exploded under the destroyer HMS Berkeley, breaking her back. Her crew were evacuated and she was sunk by a fellow destroyer. By 15.45, the Luftwaffe, realising the futility of further mass attacks, sent single bombers to harass the convoy, using the gathering overcast for protection. But by 20.00 the convoy was nearly home and the RAF had the sky to itself. During the day the Luftwaffe had made scattered raids on South East England. They came again that night: a Do 217 falling to Wing-Cdr. Pleasance's Beaufighter of 25 Squadron. For several nights afterwards, Ju 88s intensified their shipping reconnaisance over the Channel, some falling foul of 29 Squadron.

 

[claidemore]

Great essay pb!