The Greatest Air Battle

[Erich]

Njaco maybe you need to be more specific in your quest for the poll, what is deemed the greatest ? losses, kills, tactics, surprise, non-surprise, most meaningful in the long run of the month or year of the war ?

there seems to be too many favorable quantities here in my opinion

 

[Venganza]

I voted for the Battle of Midway because of how badly it crippled the Japanese Navy in such a short time (3 major carriers sunk in 10 minutes or so). It was the most important air battle in the Pacific in my opinion. In Europe, the argument might be made that the airwar during the battle of Kursk (Operation Zitadelle) was extremely important, as it helped turned back the last major offensive operation of the war for the Nazis (not excluding the Battle of the Bulge). The problem with the Kursk airwar is that it happened not over a few days but over a week and a half and the statistics, like so much else about the Eastern Front, seem to be fairly murky and subject to debate. It also involved relatively small tactical formations, not large strategic operations. Still, the Soviet attack aircraft, fighting their way through heavy Luftwaffe opposition, who had to contend with Soviet fighters, inflicted heavy casualties on the German armored units, in addition to suffering heavy losses themselves. As a matter of fact, if anyone has some relatively concrete numbers of the losses on both sides in the Kursk airwar, I'd like to see them.

 

[Njaco]

You're right Erich. I was trying to get an idea of what everyone thought was their favorite (and maybe that was the word I should have used) air battle and why they thought so. There is so much specific type of aircraft or campaign/theatre threads I was thinking that it would be interesting which single day (or small group of days) was outstanding in someones mind.

As an example:

The Hardest Day: 18 Aug 40 seemed to me a fascinating day of combat between the low level Dornier strike, the Stuka attacks, the use of balloons and how Fighter Command responded. A hard day for anyone to get through and I admire that.

Venganza, there is a recent thread that was discussing your exact questions.

 

[RabidAlien]

I have to stand and salute each and every pilot involved in each and every battle listed, as well as those not listed. I personally would have put either the Cactus Air Force or those brave pilots defending Wake Island with nothing more than ducttape and prayers, but those two were not individual battles. Of all those listed, the one that always jumps out at me is the Ploesti Raid. If ever a mission could have gone off with so much stacked against it, and still be considered at least partially a success, that would be it.

 

[renrich]

Two other major air battles to consider would be the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, 2-5 March, 1943 and Operation Hailstone, 17-18 February, 1944, the operation to neutralize the IJN base at Truk. Not as influential to the war's outcome as Midway but very important.

 

[parsifal]

I think the RAFs 1000 bomber raid or the devastating raids overv Hamburg July 1943 ought to be considered, as they were among the first truly successful offensive raids over germany. I think it was Speer who said something like "three more raids like that and we are done for!!!! Kaput Ya!!!! Perhaps overstating their effect, but they were successful nevertheless.

But in my opinion, the "greatest" raids are reserved for the FAA. Greatest IMO is not the biggest, it the most bang for your buck. Taranto has to rate as one of the most cost effective raids by any combatant in any theatre. Just 18 Swordfish knocking out three battlewagons has to be considered one of the greates achievements of the war, far more effective, plane for plane, than the japanese raids at Pearl more than a year later. Carried out in the middle of the night, no other air force could achieve such economy of force

 

[timshatz]

When I think of greatest, I tend to think of an air battle that changed the course of the war from a strategic perspective. In that realm, there are really very few. Midway and BOB on September 15th (maybe the Mariannas Turkey Shoot) are the only ones that come to mind right away.

Problem with the idea is air wars are not isolated events (in the main) but Campaigns that go on over months. The rare events that are periodic and decisive are almost all involving the Carrier Battles. They are the only air battles that are episodic (come together, clash, one side loses or wins and the fight is over).

That in mind, I would have to side with Midway. Not my favorite battle, but definitely a turning point that was entirely air derived.

 

[ccheese]

I voted for the Battle of Midway. That was the turning point of the Pacific
war. It should also be noted that I am a fan of the Pacific war, rather than
the war in Europe.

Charles

 

[Venganza]

Thanks for the info, Njaco. I think I know what thread you're talking about. I'll check it out.

 

[Freebird]

You're right Erich. I was trying to get an idea of what everyone thought was their favorite (and maybe that was the word I should have used) air battle and why they thought so.

How about the "Pedestal" air battles Aug 11 12 '42? The first time that 4 Allied Aircraft Carriers operated as a single unit IIRC, with Eagle, Victorious, Indomitable Furious operating together to cover the convoy. Check my Siggy! {Did the US have a 4 carrier operation before this?}

The resupply situation was critical in Malta in the summer of '42, and the Axis sent dozens of attacks against it, both air U-boat. The critical days, Aug 11 12 was when the fleet passed through the narrow straight between Sicily Tunisia

 

[renrich]

I don't believe that the US had a 4 carrier force operating together prior to August, 42. They would have had at Coral Sea if FDR had not sent Enterprise and Hornet off swanning about in the North Pacific, making the Army pilots sea sick. The 3 carriers at Midway operated more AC than 4 UK carriers operated.

 

[Njaco]

All good battles. Forgot about "Vigorous". Had 3 airforces involved in that one. I was going to add the Hope, Faith and Charity defense of Malta in the summer/winter of 1940 along with the Palm Sunday Massacre.

The battle doesn't neccessarily need to be a changing point although if that is a criteria you would use, thats fine.

 

[Wildcat]

Two other major air battles to consider would be the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, 2-5 March, 1943.

Agree with you on that one mate. I'll also throw in the defence of Port Moresby in early '42 by a single Kittyhawk squadron and the vital role two Australian Kittyhawk squadron's played in helping to defeat the Japanese invasion force at Milne Bay as being important battles worth mentioning in this thread.

 

[Kurfürst]

Kursk?
22nd June 1941?

 

[Amsel]

Kursk?
22nd June 1941?

That was a massive battle. And the Luftwaffe lost the initiative after that.

 

[Juha]

I agree with Kurfürst on Kursk. A truly massive air battle of some 8 days during which LW lost air superiority over the battlefields.

22 June 41 was IMHO more a sneak attack against airfields without a declaration of war than pure air battle even if Soviets lost 300 a/c in air and LW some 55 plus what Romanian AF lost. So it was also a big air battle

Juha

 

[lesofprimus]

Im stuck between 2 choices, Midway and Bodeplatte... Im leaning towards Bodeplatte because it was the final nail in the coffin of the Luftwaffe and offensive operations...

The loss of leadership that they suffered was unrepairable...

 

[Erich]

you guys are positive about Kursk and the outcome in the air eh ?

you'll note a hesitancy in my air gents

guess I better pick up Bergstroms book on the battle, I note the LW losses are mentioned in it but nothing about Soviet, anyone have this book which is suppose to be hot stuff ??

a side note is that the forces started to snipe at each other by air at night after this point in time, both blasting off with nuisance raids until the Lw placed NJG 100 and 200 on the Eastern Front

 

[pbfoot]

I can't believe no one is voting for Dieppe this is a poll about greatest air battle not most significant 48 Squadrons of Spitties against 200 Luftwaffe fighters 109's and 190's. Now if that is not a scrap I don't know what is and it was less then 10 hours long with most if not all aircraft flying multiple sorties and 150 + losses

 

[Juha]

Hello Erich
I'm not a big fan of Christer B and didn't buy his Kursk book after leafing through it in a bookshop. I based my opinion years of reading on the battle (years ago, I admit). German units noted increasing interference by Soviet AF as the battle progressed.

Juha