The Guns We Own

[mikewint]

Nicomp, we, I, us said a while back that the way to contol guns is to control ammo. The ability to tax is the ability to control and it is all in the vocabulary: "It's not a fine, that would be unconstitional, it's a tax, perfectly legal" A gun without ammo is a very expensive club.

 

[nincomp]

I do not disagree with you. I am just curious about how many folks have accumulated thousands of round of ammunition "just in case." In the 1970's and early 1980's, relatively few Americans owned semi-auto weapons in NATO calibers. In those times where the USSR was a more serious threat, the gun owners that I knew still felt well prepared if they had fewer than a dozen boxes of ammo. Now, a lot of folks keep numerous 30-round magazines loaded at all times and do not feel prepared unless they have several cases of rounds available. The definition of "enough ammo" seems to have changed.

I just wanted to say that I have seen enough panic buys over the years (and not just for ammo), that I no longer tend to ascribe them to evil intent. I remember that some of my otherwise reasonable friends started stocking their bomb shelters and stockpiling ammunition when Bill Clinton was elected. They were absolutely certain that the government was within days of sending in the shock troops to confiscate all the weapons in the country. The same happened when Obama was elected. It may well have occurred numerous times over the years.

By the way, I currently have 8 rifles (OK, some are carbines) as well as reloading equipment, so I am definitely not anti-gun.

On the other hand, since Hornady and Remington are adding new production lines or have recently done so, I am not too worried. Other things, like a drastic cost increase of brass (which is what put my former employer out of business), a shortage of worldwide copper supplies, a lack of primer or gunpowder manufacturing capacity (not surprising since our military has been using and buying a lot more ammo during the past few years) can have a surprisingly strong effect on civilian ammo availability. It also does not surprise me that there is less military surplus ammo available. When our military as well as others are shooting a lot more, there is less old ammunition around that will be sold at a low price as surplus.

The strange effects of perception and mild shortages was driven home to me the other night when I was helping my daughter with her homework. She was researching the 1979-80 oil embargo. I still vividly remember people in their cars waiting in line outside gas stations and sucking the places' tanks dry each time a fuel truck arrived. Some service stations were out of gas, and even-odd day gas rationing was in effect some places. There was genuine panic. The price of gasoline more than doubled and I remember hearing people saying that we should invade Iran and Iraq to get "our " oil.

As it turned out, the amount of gasoline sold in 1980 was only 3.5% less than in the year with the highest gas usage (1977 or '78, I think). I did not know this. It turns out that a huge amount of gasoline went into gas cans and newly installed gasoline storage tanks at homes and businesses instead of being available at the gas station pumps. All the cars waiting in lines with their engines idling did not help either.

I do not want to start a fight (a none-to-bright thing to do on thread entitled "The Guns We Own"). We simply disagree on the severity of the current situation. Then again, I have been wrong before...

 

[Matt308]

I do not disagree with you. I am just curious about how many folks have accumulated thousands of round of ammunition "just in case." In the 1970's and early 1980's, relatively few Americans owned semi-auto weapons in NATO calibers.
QUOTE]

Really you think so? Perhaps the subtlety is your NATO caliber clarifier and if so, I can agree with the statement. But heck man, there were so many M1 carbines, M1 Garands, Cetme's, FALs, G3s, MAS, SKS, etc. It's the plethora of AR-15 clones and .223 ammo being relatively cheap that has changed in the last 20+ years. That and anytime a party platform is built upon gun restrictions, it incites folks to purchase something that may not be available tomorrow when that party comes into power. I did the same thing prior to the Clinton gun ban. And guess what, once the Clinton Gun ban was instituted you couldn't buy them anymore for any realistic price. Even mags for some relatively obscure rifles/handguns were going in the $100-$200/mag range. At those prices they might as well be banned and the anti-gun folks know it. Its not about criminality. Its about removing guns from the law abiding populace.

 

[nincomp]

But heck man, there were so many M1 carbines, M1 Garands, Cetme's, FALs, G3s, MAS, SKS, etc. It's the plethora of AR-15 clones and .223 ammo being relatively cheap that has changed in the last 20+ years.

Believe me, I wish that I had gotten a Garand and an M1 Carbine when they were available! I intentionally used the phrase "Nato Caliber" (including 7.62x51) and probably should have added 7.62x39. Those are the main types of ammunition I have seen purchased by the case in recent memory. I do not remember seeing numerous ammo cans containing 30-06 or .30 Carbine ammunition in peoples gun rooms.
Even my friend who competed with a M1 Garand did not keep that much ammo on hand. Now this guy had lots of ex-military rifles, including bolt-actions, but he did not have large amounts of ammunition for them. He might have large volumes of rifle ammunition now. I don't know as I haven't seen him in a few years. On the other hand, he did have a fair amount of .45 acp ammo (including his own reloads), but he loved to shoot his 1911's.

I admit that my sample size has been small, but it includes a former workplace place where almost half of the men would take time off to go deer hunting. Relatively few of those guys had ex-military semi-autos. When they did, M1 carbines were the most common, but were generally used for plinking, when inexpensive ammo could be found. For home defense, pistols and shotguns were generally at the ready.
Most of the guys who did have ex-military rifles had a bunch of them.

I did not mean to stir up a hornet's nest, but it seems, to me at least, that the amount of "just in case" ammo has increased. I also seemed odd to me that ammo manufacturers were adding equipment for increased production if that ammo would not be sold. Then again, as I have said, I have been wrong before (just ask my wife) ...

 

[Matt308]

You live in NC and sound like you hang around hunting folks. No beef with me on your observations. They are what they are and I can actually confirm you sentiments based upon my own. My uncle lives in SC, hunts religiously and really has no interest in military weapons. Owns quite a few guns, but no military interest. 30-06, .243, 12ga, .38spl, and owns a single M1 carbine to plink with. I'm smiling at the coincidence. While I'm from a long line of rednecks (Alabama, including my transplanted Uncle), most are just your avid hunters wanting to put food in the freezer. While my uncle does not have ammo cans full of NATO calibers, he does have a respective amount of brass, powder and primers. And these, if stored like mine, are behind lock and key and not in the normal visual view.

 

[Torch]

Well I'm finally seeing some more ammo out here. I hunt with a .300wsm and a .270, Which I can find easily enough. But .223 and .308 which are also great hunting, plinking rounds have been a pain in the butt to get. i only see 150/147 gr stuff for the .308,no 168gr match thou I did find a couple of 175gr boxes. .223 grs have been sporadic in what you get mostly due to the fact that they can be fired on the 5.56 and 7.62x51 platforms and not the other way around. The Kali politicians are going after the ammo hard because nothing in the 2am that says anything about the right to own ammo,also want all ammo to be lead free which makes it hard to make a good softpoint bullet..

 

[Torch]

Like I was saying....http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/infobuls/2013-BOF-03.pdf

 

[mikewint]

Torch, had never even heard of this before, sounds pretty redundant in many respects as ballistic tests can and do match bullets to firearms and in the case of a revolver no cases are ejected to be found.
As to these d@mn ammo horders. Been picking up my 2 box quota every day so 300rnds of .40 at $17/50, 300rnds of .22LR thunderbolt at $3/50. Still no .357mag or .44mag or .22mag

 

[Matt308]

.22Mag has always been expensive and rare to find.

 

[javlin]

i only see 150/147 gr stuff for the .308,no 168gr match thou I did find a couple of 175gr boxes. ..

Hmmnn Torch for me it's the other way around the 147/150g for the .308 is your NATO weight and works in the pressure range(easily) of your semi-auto weapons.While a 165-175g can be used and has been for special applications(sniping) is not generally used but I relaod to alittle lower pressure output.I just picked up a box of 168g Speer Match a couple weeks ago but have not found 147/150 in over 2yrs.It's a good thing I started bulking up on bullets back in 2005/06 might of been even sooner for that's when I got 2000+ brass .308 cases courtesy of the USN.

 

[Matt308]

Is it as hard as they say to deprime/size/prime mil spec brass? I've never tried it nor known someone who has. Only read about it and found both sides of the argument.

 

[nincomp]

.223 grs have been sporadic in what you get mostly due to the fact that they can be fired on the 5.56 and 7.62x51 platforms and not the other way around.

Dang, I wish that I had one of those 5.56/7.62 rifles! Does it come with some new-fangled variable sized chamber gizmo or do you put it into the clothes dryer to shrink it down? I know that some of you and now asking yourselves "after he shrinks the rifle down, how does he get it to grow back to 7.62 size again?" Well, I thought of a solution:
porn.

 

[Torch]

what I meant was .223/5.56 and .308/7.62x51.......or to clarify further you should not fire 5.56 in a .223 or a 7.62x51 in a .308....

 

[Torch]

I have seen a special "deprimer" for military brass,pretty sure Brownells and Dillon carry them...You still need to make sure the primer pocket and hole are all clean. I have not done many but it's do able.

 

[javlin]

Is it as hard as they say to deprime/size/prime mil spec brass? I've never tried it nor known someone who has. Only read about it and found both sides of the argument.

It could be somewhat problematic the first go round Matt with the Lake City brass.I will have to say I loss a couple deprimer/resizer due to case sticking but credited that more to an unsatisfactory lube application more than anything.The brass itself is excellant and thick lending itself to more reloads over the commercial methinks.Now there is another primer that is used if memory serves me right that has two indentions on the iside(?) that does take a special tool to which I think Torch may of been referring to.The LC brass has the single relief like commercial but even the size of the primer pocket is tighter than commercial brass.

 

[nincomp]

what I meant was .223/5.56 and .308/7.62x51.......or to clarify further you should not fire 5.56 in a .223 or a 7.62x51 in a .308....

Oh, I know, but I could not resist!
My Wife says that anyone who deals with me for much time needs to develop a "drivel filter." That way they can ignore my silly comments and only hear the normal ones.

 

[Matt308]

It could be somewhat problematic the first go round Matt with the Lake City brass.I will have to say I loss a couple deprimer/resizer due to case sticking but credited that more to an unsatisfactory lube application more than anything.The brass itself is excellant and thick lending itself to more reloads over the commercial methinks.Now there is another primer that is used if memory serves me right that has two indentions on the iside(?) that does take a special tool to which I think Torch may of been referring to.The LC brass has the single relief like commercial but even the size of the primer pocket is tighter than commercial brass.

Yeah, I've seen the Dillon deprimer pocket tool (not cheap, but not expensive if that is your game). But just wondered if us average guys thought that reloading mil brass was worth the effort. Based upon comments so far I'm still undetermined. Not enough data points for me.

 

[mikewint]

Matt, I can see where you could save money in the long run and obtain cal./loads not or hard to find. BUT the cost of equipment is going to take a while to amortize and the biggest neg right now is that bullets/brass/primers are just as hard to find as factory loads so add an idle reloading machine to an idle gun/rifle

 

[Torch]

Lake City and Norma have excellent brass but you have to be careful after 3+ reloads especially if they are hot loads, the brass will stretch and eventually you will get cracks around the neck area,which for me reloading was done when I'm in a relaxed mode and not rushing. There is always a careful check up on used brass and they are seperated by the amount of use they get. It is time consuming thats for sure. But always worth the effort when you get that load that just works for you..

 

[javlin]

Lake City and Norma have excellent brass but you have to be careful after 3+ reloads especially if they are hot loads, the brass will stretch and eventually you will get cracks around the neck area,which for me reloading was done when I'm in a relaxed mode and not rushing. There is always a careful check up on used brass and they are seperated by the amount of use they get. It is time consuming thats for sure. But always worth the effort when you get that load that just works for you..

Been there done that Torch.It happened on my G43 with a cracked neck back in the early days of reloading.I was able to get 6-8 reloads on Sellier&Belliot 8MM brass then learned what to look for.It somehow becomes second nature now upon measuring case length and resizing/depriming.So far the LC seems to hold up really well but then again am maybe only on the second run of only some of the brass me reloading.I found out a neat trick for cracked case and bullet lodge in the barrel?You have another round loaded but with paper packed in the throat of said case,discharge and it clears the barrel.