The Guns We Own

[Ivan1GFP]

Resp:
Agree with you on the skill of average rifleman. For some reason it seems more people are worried about recoil. One reason as when shooting from the bench, they tend to bend down toward the rifle which puts the top part of their shoulder (where there is little muscle) against the butt. I always stack extra bags on the bench which makes me sit up straight, enabling more shoulder muscle to absorb the rifle's movement. I also do not not stiffen but relax and let the rifle and shoulder move rearward. When shooting my 300 WM I substitute a lesser recoiling rifle between groups fired. For example; I would shoot my 308 (1 fouling with 3 shot group) and then switch to the 300 WM. Normally, the breakdown at the end of my shooting session would be: 1 fouling shot for each rifle (for 2 total). 3 or 4 three shot groups for the 308, and two 3 shot groups for the 300.

Different guns seem to require different holds to shoot their best.
During the Tuesday evening range sessions, an old Air Force Colonel also was there at times.
He was a Benchrest shooter, so his typical rifle was about 25 to 30 pounds and firing 6 mm PPC.
Shooting his rifles was much like setting up an artillery piece, with elevation and Windage in the rests that he used.
There was no contact at all with the gun when it was fired, so it would free-recoil.
For him, a 1/4 inch group at 100 yards was extremely poor performance.
Obviously the technique worked for this kind of rifle.
I have done quite a bit of shooting with M14 / M1A semi auto .308s and much of the time I use high power telescopes because without them, I usually can't shoot to the capability of the gun. Scopes also let me hold well enough to distinguish small differences in accuracy between different loads that I might be testing.
One of the things I observed pretty early on was that the M14 type guns needed to be held VERY tight to shoot well.
With a tight sling and lots of tension into the shoulder, I can see the scope reticle bounce on the target in time with my heartbeat.
My technique could also probably use some improvement and I could also see the slight wobble from muscle tension.
The interesting thing was that even with this slight wobble and bounce from my heartbeat, I shoot measureably smaller groups with a tight hold than with a looser hold where the scope reticle is very steady.
With a scope, the gun is 14.5 pounds, so it is fairly heavy for a .308 Winchester.
I also have a bolt action .308 Winchester of the same weight and comparable optics which seems to be much less sensitive to how it is held.

I treat the .300 Winchester the same way I treat the .44 Magnum. Full power loads are unpleasant especially if you run through as many rounds as I do in a session. I tend to load them a bit light (168 grain bullet at 2950 fps or so) and also follow the pattern used by the Naval Surface Warfare folks: The rounds are loaded considerably longer than SAAMI OAL but still fit in the magazine box without issues. Hopefully the lighter loads will give a bit better barrel life than is typical for the Magnum calibers. The only thing I have done to the rifle other than mount a telescope was to take a sharp edge off the feed ramp where bullets were getting scraped while chambering.
This gun also doesn't seem to be very sensitive to how it is held but is a bit lighter than the .308Ws.

- Ivan.

 

[Glider]

When coaching we used to train people to slow their heart rate so they could shoot between heartbeats. That said if it is visibly moving you may want to try moving position. Normally the first point I would check is the wrist.
As for the boots the most important was a good shooting jacket. Trousers and boots far less important and for obvious reasons don't apply for prone shooting.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

When coaching we used to train people to slow their heart rate so they could shoot between heartbeats. That said if it is visibly moving you may want to try moving position. Normally the first point I would check is the wrist.
As for the boots the most important was a good shooting jacket. Trousers and boots far less important and for obvious reasons don't apply for prone shooting.

Shooting between heartbeats. Now that would be a trick to observe! Perhaps you really meant between breaths?
The sling would contact the back of my wrist. I believe the heartbeat was because of the pressure against the shoulder muscles.
Now keep in mind that I was typically using a 20 X telescope and the bounce was comparable to the width of the cross hair on the scope. In other words, it wasn't much from an angular standpoint and by my estimate was making under 1/8 inch difference on the target at 100 yards. Without a high power scope, this would not even be visible on the target.
It wouldn't do for a Benchrest gun, but I was shooting service rifle types.

I never had quite the same level of success with the M1 Garand as I did with the other service rifles.

- Ivan.

 

[Shortround6]

Hello Shortround6,

My Son tried out "Precision Rifle" (Olympic Style Air Rifle) shooting a couple years ago.
When he started, one of the coaches suggested to him that he should wear high lace up boots when shooting because it would immobilize his ankle joints and might make him a bit more steady from the standing position.
Maybe there is something to wearing heavy military style boots.

That is theory alright. I know back in the 50s and early 60s some people would wear the old fashion leather ski boots (you can't use the modern plastic ones as the they have a built in bend at the ankle).

I am not saying they are really wrong, just that the difference may not be all that great. In the Olympics one point out of 600 may be the difference between getting a medal or not. But for most of us league shooters it just seemed a lot bother, I could go to a weekly league match with my rifle in a soft case over my shoulder and duffle bag with my jacket, mat and other accessories and watch other people drag in gun cases with rollers on one end and equipment bags that would do a hockey goalie proud ( some of them were hockey bags). League matches were either 20 shots or 30 shots depending on 4 pos or 3 pos.
I also found (secret) that on a grass firing line (outdoor shooting) it is a lot easier to find a couple of spots for your ball and heel of each foot with a loafer or normal shoe/boot sole and heel that in those almost totally flat rigid soled boots. Doesn't matter if your ankles are held stiff if the bottom of your shoe/boot/foot is rocking.

A lot of people try to "buy" points using the most trick gear or accessories. Until you get to the top 10% or so it doesn't make much difference although I guess if you are going to continue on you might as well start using all the do-das that you will wind up using. It might actually slow progress in the beginning as so much "stuff" can be a distraction.

 

[Shortround6]

Shooting between heartbeats. Now that would be a trick to observe! Perhaps you really meant between breaths?
The sling would contact the back of my wrist. I believe the heartbeat was because of the pressure against the shoulder muscles.
Now keep in mind that I was typically using a 20 X telescope and the bounce was comparable to the width of the cross hair on the scope.

If the sling went around the upper arm you may have been picking up the pulse from the artery in the arm. Middle of the upper arm is the worst, high or low is better. If I had a small area of wobble I just went with it. Trying to fire in between pulses or when the gun was "stationary" often lead to grabbing at the trigger and pulled shots.
I was looking for a technique that would work for 20-40 shots in row. 9 great and 1 oops does not beat 10 good shots. Some people may be able to string together a long series of great shots, I couldn't so I went with long series of good shots.

 

[Glider]

Shooting between heartbeats. Now that would be a trick to observe! Perhaps you really meant between breaths?

- Ivan.

No, I meant what I said, shooting between heart beats. Often used at international level in both rifle and pistol shooting and taught in the UK at county level.
For myself the difficult part wasn't the reduction in the heartbeat, the problem was keeping it there to take the shot. Never did manage it which is why I was a better coach than shot.

As an aside I did use it once when I was in hospital. There was one nurse who was an absolute terror, always complaining . She took me for an ECG and I couldn't resist the temptation. Every time she left the room I would slow it down and increase it when she returned. The look on her face when she reviewed the result was a picture.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello Shortround6,

This Precision Rifle program did produce the last Olympic champion, so I figure at least some of the coaches know their business.
I also noticed that I was a much more experienced rifleman than a couple of the coaches though that doesn't mean I know anything about coaching at all (which I do not).
Yes, the sling did go over the upper arm and that might be a source of the pulse. In any case, I could only see the effect with a telescope on the rifle.
When firing with NM sights, it was in the noise and I don't think I can tell the difference between ammunition that was shooting 1/4 inch better or worse. Off the bench or with sandbags, 1/2 inch gets noticeable.
If I am standing, then you can load the magazine with the lousiest ball ammunition available and it would not show in my scores.
I got out of shooting the service rifle matches pretty early because it seemed to be too much of a game and exploiting the rules.
WHY should a semi auto rifle be single loaded with rounds that can't even fit into the magazine for the slow fire stages?
I also found it amusing that every rifle could shoot "Under an inch" but extremely few rifles could actually demonstrate this ability on demand even if given plenty of chances. It was also amusing how few people actually knew any significant detail about what their ammunition was actually doing in their gun. They were basically copying recipes without understanding that often the loading technique rather than the recipe was the important part.

- Ivan.

 

[Shortround6]

Coaching can be all over the place.
I am not claiming to be of national standard but 20 or so years ago in several gun clubs I belonged to members would have me coach their girlfriends or family members even if they were pretty good shots themselves. That commercial range I worked for had a large junior program (120-170 kids most years) and had several good coaches. One had coached an NCAA national record setter (back in the early 60s) and he was actually one of the least dogmatic coaches I have seen.
If a kid was missing a lot (and horribly) in standing he would actually stand behind the shooter and instruct them to fire when he said "fire". He would then watch the shooter raise the rifle and start to aim, He would then look at his watch (not the shooter) and when 7 seconds had passed he would say "fire". The shooter wouldn't get a hit every time but they either hit black or got close enough to give them enough confidence to do better. Most people (and I am guilty myself) hold too long when shooting standing.
I never had the guts to try coaching using that trick myself
That coach was also a great believer in doing whatever it took for the individual shooter. We all have different length arms and legs, different length necks and different shaped faces. There is no one correct "position" that suits everybody. I learned a lot from him. You do learn a lot coaching 2-3 hours a day 3-4 days a week for a number of years. ( I had a real job on the Fire Dept and was not there full time).
I happen to believe that target shooting is great sport for lazy people. The goal in any position (prone, sitting, kneeling or standing) is to use the fewest number of muscles possible. You hold the gun up with your bones and the sling except for offhand.

This is for target shooting and hunting and military (combat) shooting is different.

 

[Bucksnort101]

OK, want some info from people that may know. I'm looking to replace my current Deer Rifle (.30-06) with something that has much lighter recoil as my shoulder can't take shooting the ought six as much as it used to. I've narrowed my choices down to .25-06, 6.5 Creedmore or Swede, and 7mm-08.
Not sure I really buy into all the hype on the 6.5 Creedmore, and I really like the little I've read on the 7mm-08. Anyone shoot a 7mm-08 and can comment on how much less recoil you see compared to a .30-06 (I'm shooting about an 8lbs rifle with 180 gr. bullets).
I either need to go with a lighter recoiling rifle or switch to shooting my current rifle right handed and I really don't want to do that.

 

[Shortround6]

I can tell you that recoil is going to be pretty proportional to bullet weight if the velocity is close. Maybe the 7mm will give you what you want?

Thr 6.5mm gives a bigger reduction.

A 180 grain .308 bullet has a sectional density of .271
a 150 grain .284 bullet has a sectional density of .266
a 130 grain .264 bullet has a sectional density of .266

What each company or bullet does with bullet weight as a far as shape goes for ballistic coefficient can certainly vary but the sectional density (weight per unit of frontal area) should give you a starting point for possibilities.
If a 120 grain 6.5/.264 bullet will do what you want on game ( bullet expansion/penetration) you may be able to get a recoil of about 2/3rds that of the 30/06 vs 5/6s or bet better by going to the 7mm-08, depends a bit on exact bullet weight.
I don't know about the hype on the 6.5 Creedmoor and I haven't hunted in 40 years but I did shoot out a barrel (about 5000 rounds) in 6.5 x 308 (.260 Remington) and beat the heck out of a lot of people using .308s. I don't think it really matters about a few degrees of shoulder angle or a few grains of powder capacity.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

OK, want some info from people that may know. I'm looking to replace my current Deer Rifle (.30-06) with something that has much lighter recoil as my shoulder can't take shooting the ought six as much as it used to. I've narrowed my choices down to .25-06, 6.5 Creedmore or Swede, and 7mm-08.
Not sure I really buy into all the hype on the 6.5 Creedmore, and I really like the little I've read on the 7mm-08. Anyone shoot a 7mm-08 and can comment on how much less recoil you see compared to a .30-06 (I'm shooting about an 8lbs rifle with 180 gr. bullets).
I either need to go with a lighter recoiling rifle or switch to shooting my current rifle right handed and I really don't want to do that.

Hello Bucksnort101,
First I will qualify my advice by stating up front that I am not a hunter and never have been.
I HAVE hung around with hunters for decades though and have done just about everything up to pulling the trigger on a live animal.
If you are hunting Deer, I presume they are the typical Whitetail that are all over the place around here.
They are pretty common even in my residential neighbourhood and I often come across them when walking.
Whitetail are pretty small and a .30-06 180 grain bullet seems like quite a bit of overkill.
If recoil is what bothers you, perhaps going down to a 150 grain might be enough to make things less painful?
If the shooting distances are short as they tend to be around here, you might even be able to go lighter than that and still keep your .30-06.
You will certainly be giving up bullet weight with a lighter caliber anyway.

I presume you do not reload your own ammunition.
If you did, I would suggest loading a 150 grain premium hunting bullet down to around 2600-2650 fps or pretty close to what a .300 Savage would do. This is a duplication of the ballistics of the military ball ammunition from the mid 1960's that was issued during the Vietnam era and seems to be accurate in every .30-06 I have ever tried it in (as long as the bullet is a decent quality).

Hello Shortround6,
Regarding coaching as with most other things, I see a dogmatic approach as an indication of a closed mind and lack of actual thinking and adaptation to the circumstances. People like that tend to bother me.

- Ivan.

 

[Navalwarrior]

OK, want some info from people that may know. I'm looking to replace my current Deer Rifle (.30-06) with something that has much lighter recoil as my shoulder can't take shooting the ought six as much as it used to. I've narrowed my choices down to .25-06, 6.5 Creedmore or Swede, and 7mm-08.
Not sure I really buy into all the hype on the 6.5 Creedmore, and I really like the little I've read on the 7mm-08. Anyone shoot a 7mm-08 and can comment on how much less recoil you see compared to a .30-06 (I'm shooting about an 8lbs rifle with 180 gr. bullets).
I either need to go with a lighter recoiling rifle or switch to shooting my current rifle right handed and I really don't want to do that.

Resp:
I understand the need to change. I have two friends who had to go to the 25-06 due to neck issues (not related to firearm usage). I have rifles in both 25-06 and 7mm08. Either will work. Keep in mind that stock fit and weight play a big part in how much a rifle moves (kicks). My 7mm08 in on a Rem 700 action, with factory composite stock and a 24 inch bbl. with a 139 gr handload (heavy) it is pleasant to shoot.

 

[Bucksnort101]

Yes, a 180 Gr. .30-06 bullet is a bit overkill on a Whitetail sized animal, but it sure dispatches them quickly if I do my part. Too late to switch to a 150 Gr. this year, but will try it after this season.
Reason for asking is I have a buddy that is going to start building rifles and I may have him build one for me. I want something I can used for Whitetails, but also spend a day at the range shooting and not get beaten up so much (I've busted up both shoulders in accidents, my shoulder the stock rest in twice).
He will be building on a Rem 700 action as well, so I was thinking of having him build a rifle with a heavier barrel, not that concerned about weight as I don't spend a lot of time hiking in the woods anymore. Thinking a tapered varmint style barrel, and them mate it to a fitted stock.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Yes, a 180 Gr. .30-06 bullet is a bit overkill on a Whitetail sized animal, but it sure dispatches them quickly if I do my part. Too late to switch to a 150 Gr. this year, but will try it after this season.
Reason for asking is I have a buddy that is going to start building rifles and I may have him build one for me. I want something I can used for Whitetails, but also spend a day at the range shooting and not get beaten up so much (I've busted up both shoulders in accidents, my shoulder the stock rest in twice).
He will be building on a Rem 700 action as well, so I was thinking of having him build a rifle with a heavier barrel, not that concerned about weight as I don't spend a lot of time hiking in the woods anymore. Thinking a tapered varmint style barrel, and them mate it to a fitted stock.

Resp:
I recommend you go to a gunshop and handle various Rem 700 (since that is the action you plan to use). Take note of the barrel diameter. A 25-06 will have a heavier barrel than a 7mm, and a 7mm over the 30-06. Most likely they will have various 308s since it has become the 'go to' for tactical applications. You will get a good idea of what you want as to weight and bbl length. I also use steel scope mounts when I want to add a little more weight over aluminum. Good luck.
PS. I only have one truly custom rifle; a 358 Norma Mag w 23" number 5 profile.

 

[Shortround6]

Recoil is proportional to momentum mass (weight X velocity) and not muzzle energy (mass x velocity x velocity) so just cutting velocity, while it helps, is not a major change.

The difference in metal between a .264 bore and a .308 bore in a barrel with the same external dimension is not that great. You are talking about a 1/2 a cubic in of metal.

a 24 in barrel vs a 22 might add a few ounces, and some of these small bores might be a bit more sensitive to barrel length and velocity.
For the .264 one turn in 9 in for twist seems to work very well, at least for all but the very longest bullets and for hunting you probably aren't using match VLD (very low drag) bullets anyway. One in ten might not be quick enough depending on bullets (my one in ten barrel did great with 120 grain Sierra match but 140s were a disaster) The one in nine barrel (.260Rem) shot both just fine at a variety of velocities.

 

[michael rauls]

Yes, a 180 Gr. .30-06 bullet is a bit overkill on a Whitetail sized animal, but it sure dispatches them quickly if I do my part. Too late to switch to a 150 Gr. this year, but will try it after this season.
Reason for asking is I have a buddy that is going to start building rifles and I may have him build one for me. I want something I can used for Whitetails, but also spend a day at the range shooting and not get beaten up so much (I've busted up both shoulders in accidents, my shoulder the stock rest in twice).
He will be building on a Rem 700 action as well, so I was thinking of having him build a rifle with a heavier barrel, not that concerned about weight as I don't spend a lot of time hiking in the woods anymore. Thinking a tapered varmint style barrel, and them mate it to a fitted stock.

A couple of suggestions that I hope are helpful. One is the weight of the rifle. All other things being equal it's amazing how a couple of extra pounds of rifle will tame recoil. This of course has the downside of lugging around a heavier rifle. This doesn't bother me but I know some people hate it.
Another one is a recoil tube. It's a tube, partially filled usually with mercury that you have custom fitted into the stock that spreads the recoil out over more time. When the rifle starts to move back the mercury moves to the front of the tube( actually it stays stationary while the rifle moves back) storing energy in the proces. Then as the rifle starts to move forward again the the mercury now moves back( in relationship to the rifle) and distribues the stored energy. The result is the same number of foot pounds of energy to the shoulder but distributed over about twice the amount of time thereby cutting felt recoil about in half.
I have never had a rifle with one of these but a friend did, a 30-06, and it felt like nothing to shoot.
The other obvious solution would be an autoloader. They tend to have considerably less recoil. A combination of two or three of these solutions should really nix the felt recoil.
Hope this helps.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Recoil is proportional to momentum mass (weight X velocity) and not muzzle energy (mass x velocity x velocity) so just cutting velocity, while it helps, is not a major change.

The difference in metal between a .264 bore and a .308 bore in a barrel with the same external dimension is not that great. You are talking about a 1/2 a cubic in of metal.

a 24 in barrel vs a 22 might add a few ounces, and some of these small bores might be a bit more sensitive to barrel length and velocity.
For the .264 one turn in 9 in for twist seems to work very well, at least for all but the very longest bullets and for hunting you probably aren't using match VLD (very low drag) bullets anyway. One in ten might not be quick enough depending on bullets (my one in ten barrel did great with 120 grain Sierra match but 140s were a disaster) The one in nine barrel (.260Rem) shot both just fine at a variety of velocities.

Resp:
True inre to on the differences of bore diameter/weight. However, combine that with a smaller/lesser recoiling ctg, one often gets the desired results. My 25-06 is significantly heavier than my 30-06. I just see many new shooters thinking weight is the 'main' issue with any gun. If one wants to keep the weight of a standard rifle, but wants it more 'handy', as in a shorter overall length, then getting a larger diameter/heavier bbl is one way to do it.
I shoot 120 gr Sierras in a 20'' Browning 260. Buck dropped at the shot; no hesitation.
PS. Many commercial hunting game ranches prohibit the use of smaller ctgs, such as 243, 25-06, 260, etc. I suspect the Creedmoor would be prohibited as well. I do not know of any that prohibit the 7mm08. 30-06s are welcome. The folks I've talked to are amazed of how poor the marksmanship of those who have been showing up to hunt these last 5 yrs or so. Technology does not take the place to marksmanship skills (and field craft)!!

 

[Tieleader]

We have a winner in the most guns own category!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3DLT3dC_mw

Oh, to be rich....

 

[mikewint]

The 30-06 is a fantastic cartridge for any N. American big game and I do like it for deer. Recently I purchased a Weatherby Vanguard "24 chambered in the .25-06 cartridge and it is a very very nice round and does a heck of a one shot job on any of the White-tails here in Ark.
The Savage 11/111 Trophy Hunter XP Bolt in .223 also works well but is a bit light and requires good shot placement for a one-shot kill.
If I go out into the woods there is nothing like my good old Winchester 94 in 30-30. 50 yards is a L O N G shot around here in most cases.

 

[Navalwarrior]

The 30-06 is a fantastic cartridge for any N. American big game and I do like it for deer. Recently I purchased a Weatherby Vanguard "24 chambered in the .25-06 cartridge and it is a very very nice round and does a heck of a one shot job on any of the White-tails here in Ark.
The Savage 11/111 Trophy Hunter XP Bolt in .223 also works well but is a bit light and requires good shot placement for a one-shot kill.
If I go out into the woods there is nothing like my good old Winchester 94 in 30-30. 50 yards is a L O N G shot around here in most cases.

Resp:
I believe that anyone who does any serious hunting should own at least one 30-06. I have a half a dozen. However, I use several other chamberings as well. I just acquired (actually 3 yrs ago but just put a scope on it) a grey stainless 25-06, and fired it at 50 yds after bore sighting it. Will re-zero at 100, then again at 200.