The Guns We Own

[Navalwarrior]

Hello Navalwarrior,
Several boxes of pistol ammunition is about what you would expect. Probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of 150 rounds, but it doesn't seem like that much because if I am shooting pistol, there are usually at least two guns. I just about always shoot a full box of 50 at a time because it doesn't make sense to load less than 50 rounds of pistol ammunition at a time if you have already worked up the loads.
It is pretty quick with a Dillon 550 progressive press and I have two of them set up.
One is for Large Primer and one is for Small because I got tired of having to switch and adjust the primer feeds.

I used to go out to the range after work every Friday at least during the Summer months and spend about 2 hours or so there.
In the Winter, it got dark too early to make that kind of thing worthwhile because the ranges I went to were outdoors.
When I was shooting a .22 pistol, I generally shot A LOT.
I would try to see how fast I could knock down 6 steel plates at 25 yards and would have about 4 magazines in front of me and not keep track of how many rounds were left in the gun. The point was that when the gun ran dry, it was not predictable and I would have to immediately reload and continue on the next plate.
If I missed, I just had to keep shooting until I knocked the plate down.
What was really cool was that there were a couple times when I made a hit but the plate did not fall fast enough and I made a second hit as it was falling.
I figure I was burning about 300 rounds on an average session and would go through an entire carton of the Federal .22 which was 550 rounds in one trip.

The .22 pistol I was using was inexpensive and nothing to look at but was incredibly accurate.... When it was new.
When I first got it, I was able to shoot 10 round groups that were 3/4 inch center to center at 25 yards with Remington Target ammunition from the bench.
With Remington High Velocity, it was doing around 1 inch groups and didn't seem to like other brands as much.
I believe after 15,000 rounds or so, it needs a new firing pin and the accuracy isn't nearly as good as when it was new.
Then again, my eyesight isn't as good as when it was new either!
Now this is the sad part: I didn't realise how unusual this level of accuracy was at the time. When this gun started malfunctioning, I could tell the firing pin strikes were light and the firing pin tip and breech face were worn as was the feed ramp on the barrel. I figured I would just buy a new gun, so I bought a higher grade version. The accuracy of the new gun wasn't bad but was never quite as good as the first one.

- Ivan.

Resp:
I am glad you were/are able to shoot frequently. Too many people try (my opinion) to shoot infrequently, by making it up by increasing the number of shots fired. Too me it teaches bad habits, as when you are tired . . .and still have rds in the magazine . . . one has a tendency to just fire them up. So when I teach, I always use a single stack Mag pistol or revolver. Too hard to correct bad habits, so shooting sessions involve fewer rds fired.
I also 'spike' the 2nd or 3rd magazine with a dummy rd to show the shooter he/she is pulling the down down/left etc in anticipation of the pistol discharge. Most R handlers pull down and L.
Keep your powder dry!

 

[Shortround6]

One of the greatest training aids ever made.

Triggers usually aren't too bad and all it does is release the compressed air (one stroke of the pump) so you can really see the sights bobble if you have a heavy (or energetic ) trigger finger
In fact under some lighting conditions you can see the pellet in flight for even more reinforcement.
any movement of the "gun" on firing is the shooter, you would need very good instruments to detect any recoil

 

[michael rauls]

I am lucky to own what are to me, the two most important guns in the world.
One is a 22 pump action rifle that belonged to my grandfather when he was a child. His father died whan he was about 12 and it became his responsibility to provided for the family. One of the ways he did this was by hunting small game around there home in Wyoming. I feel verry lucky to have the verry rifle he used.
It's unique. Never seen another one like it. Its verry small. Looks like it was specifically built for a child.
The other is a high standard 22 target pistol that he and my grandmother taught me to shoot with.
Also have a 870 pump shotgun but of course it doesn't have any of the sentimental value of the othe two.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Resp:
I am glad you were/are able to shoot frequently. Too many people try (my opinion) to shoot infrequently, by making it up by increasing the number of shots fired. Too me it teaches bad habits, as when you are tired . . .and still have rds in the magazine . . . one has a tendency to just fire them up. So when I teach, I always use a single stack Mag pistol or revolver. Too hard to correct bad habits, so shooting sessions involve fewer rds fired.
I also 'spike' the 2nd or 3rd magazine with a dummy rd to show the shooter he/she is pulling the down down/left etc in anticipation of the pistol discharge. Most R handlers pull down and L.
Keep your powder dry!

Cont:
Forgot to mention the importance of replacing the 'recoil spring' (slows slide during recoil & returns it to full battery) to keep the slide from battering/cracking frame. If I am thinking of buying a 10+ yr old automatic, I check on line to see if I can get new replacement springs before purchasing it. I found new springs (Kit) for a 1937 produced pistol, so I went back and bought it.

 

[GrauGeist]

...One is a 22 pump action rifle that belonged to my grandfather when he was a child. His father died whan he was about 12 and it became his responsibility to provided for the family. One of the ways he did this was by hunting small game around there home in Wyoming. I feel verry lucky to have the verry rifle he used.
It's unique. Never seen another one like it. Its verry small. Looks like it was specifically built for a child...

Sounds like that .22 rifle might be either a Remington Model 12 or a Winchester Model 62.

 

[Tieleader]

It might be hard to match this guy's collection...

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Resp:
I am glad you were/are able to shoot frequently. Too many people try (my opinion) to shoot infrequently, by making it up by increasing the number of shots fired. Too me it teaches bad habits, as when you are tired . . .and still have rds in the magazine . . . one has a tendency to just fire them up. So when I teach, I always use a single stack Mag pistol or revolver. Too hard to correct bad habits, so shooting sessions involve fewer rds fired.
I also 'spike' the 2nd or 3rd magazine with a dummy rd to show the shooter he/she is pulling the down down/left etc in anticipation of the pistol discharge. Most R handlers pull down and L.
Keep your powder dry!

I don't actually do much shooting these days, but for a few years, just about everything revolved around shooting practice, testing and experimentation. At one range, I would go there every Tuesday evening and share the range with a group of Black Powder shooters. It was amusing that at times I was shooting a semi auto rifle next to either a Match Lock or Flintlock.
These were guys that often only shot about 3 to 5 rounds for the entire evening and then spent more time cleaning than shooting.
One of the things I learned from shooting "Black Powder" was that actual Black Powder is much more erosive than Pyrodex.
I found that out because with the Sharps, I was shooting more in one range session than some of these guys would shoot in several years. The breech seals are also quite visible on a Sharps replica.

What kinds of pistols were you using for instruction?

- Ivan.

 

[michael rauls]

Sounds like that .22 rifle might be either a Remington Model 12 or a Winchester Model 62.

Cant find a model number on it but on the barrel it says Remington - pedersons patent number 1909 jan 5 and it says Remington umc on the butplate.
Amazingly it is still in perfect working order if a little beat up.

 

[michael rauls]

Sounds like that .22 rifle might be either a Remington Model 12 or a Winchester Model 62.

Yes you were right. I Googled Remington model 12 and sure enough thats it.
Thanks for pointing me the right direction on that. I've wondered but didn't know enough to start a search. For some reason I never thought to ask my grandfather about that while he was alive. I guess I was so taken with the history of the particular rifle I never really thought about the type in general. Thanks again!

 

[GrauGeist]

Yes you were right. I Googled Remington model 12 and sure enough thats it.
Thanks for pointing me the right direction on that. I've wondered but didn't know enough to start a search. For some reason I never thought to ask my grandfather about that while he was alive. I guess I was so taken with the history of the particular rifle I never really thought about the type in general. Thanks again!

You're welcome!
The popular .22 "Junior" and "Gallery" rifles of the day were Remington, Winchester and Savage.

My stepdad had a pristine Remington Model 12 for ages and it was a nail-driver.

 

[Navalwarrior]

I don't actually do much shooting these days, but for a few years, just about everything revolved around shooting practice, testing and experimentation. At one range, I would go there every Tuesday evening and share the range with a group of Black Powder shooters. It was amusing that at times I was shooting a semi auto rifle next to either a Match Lock or Flintlock.
These were guys that often only shot about 3 to 5 rounds for the entire evening and then spent more time cleaning than shooting.
One of the things I learned from shooting "Black Powder" was that actual Black Powder is much more erosive than Pyrodex.
I found that out because with the Sharps, I was shooting more in one range session than some of these guys would shoot in several years. The breech seals are also quite visible on a Sharps replica.

What kinds of pistols were you using for instruction?

- Ivan.

Resp:
I am a very good rifle shot, but when I witnessed several yrs ago falling block (Sharps, etc), rolling block and trapdoor rifles being shot at 200 to 600 meters . . . I had a wake up call. Peep sights are extremely precise, just that 'lighting' must be good to see distant targets. For my scout marksmanship merit badge, I shot a Savage 22 with a global front, in addition to the rear peep. However, if I remember correctly the distance was 50 ft.
The last person I trained (early this yr) I used a SIG P6 (225). Normally I use a K frame S&W 38 with 4 inch bbl, but this girl grew up on a farm so was a good rifle shot, and knew to to properly handle guns (no unsafe behavior here). She had applied for a Federal LE position, which used one of the new fangelled composite autos. So She was ahead of most people learning to shoot. We shot once a wk (sometimes twice) where she would load and shoot 4 mags. One day she couldn't focus, so we stopped after 2 mags. I do not teach at 7 yards anymore, as it gives a false sense of skill. 10 yards is my starting point, then progress to 25 yards. If I had time (and they had the desire) I would show/teach them out to 50yrds.

 

[Glider]

It would be wrong to say that I owned one, but in the late 1970's I did have the use a civilian version of the L42, which at the time was the standard sniper rifle of the British Army. The differences were minor, the magazine was blocked off so each shell had to be loaded manually and out of choice I used a peep sight, not a telescopic sight.

We found a photo of me on the 700 yard range at Bisley. Its a poor photo but you can see that in competition the rifles were held. They were not rested on anything and we didn't use a bipod. Everyone used to get upset about the way I crossed my feet, but it worked for me.

 

[michael rauls]

It would be wrong to say that I owned one, but in the late 1970's I did have the use a civilian version of the L42, which at the time was the standard sniper rifle of the British Army. The differences were minor, the magazine was blocked off so each shell had to be loaded manually and out of choice I used a peep sight, not a telescopic sight.

We found a photo of me on the 700 yard range at Bisley. Its a poor photo but you can see that in competition the rifles were held. They were not rested on anything and we didn't use a bipod. Everyone used to get upset about the way I crossed my feet, but it worked for me.
View attachment 512420

Verry cool shot( so to speak). The best long range rifle I ever owned was an M1 Garanad. Was really something the accuracy even at 300 yards which is about as far as I can shoot.
Wish I still had that gun. Traded it for a guitar. Don't know what I was thinking.

 

[Shortround6]

It would be wrong to say that I owned one, but in the late 1970's I did have the use a civilian version of the L42, which at the time was the standard sniper rifle of the British Army. The differences were minor, the magazine was blocked off so each shell had to be loaded manually and out of choice I used a peep sight, not a telescopic sight.

We found a photo of me on the 700 yard range at Bisley. Its a poor photo but you can see that in competition the rifles were held. They were not rested on anything and we didn't use a bipod. Everyone used to get upset about the way I crossed my feet, but it worked for me.
View attachment 512420

If it works go with it.
People used to get upset with me for wearing loafers to shoot standing in instead fancy German shooting boots.
since I beat over 1/2 of the people using the boots (and knew I would never beat some of the ones who were) I went with it.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Verry cool shot( so to speak). The best long range rifle I ever owned was an M1 Garanad. Was really something the accuracy even at 300 yards which is about as far as I can shoot.
Wish I still had that gun. Traded it for a guitar. Don't know what I was thinking.

Resp:
Many years ago, a friend and I were on the 100 yard range. I had a scoped Mauser 308 and he a 'stock' M1 Garand. I spotted as he proceeded to punch out the center of a 4 inch circle, in the off-hand position. As he continued to fire, shooters (all were firing scoped rifles from the bench) stopped firing . . as I continued to call out the shots. I think most of those shooters saw what can be done with a rifle!

 

[Shortround6]

I worked at a commercial range part time for a number of years. 50 firing points at 200 yards. about 25 firing points at 25-50 yds and 95 firing points at 50-100yds (the back stop berm was at 100yds). 10 indoor points at 50ft and feild you could shoot shotguns in. I was the employee often designated to sight in customers rifles. Some days I would arrive around lunch time, sight in a couple of rifles and then get ready to coach a high school rifle team until 5pm. If no rifles to sight in I helped in the gun shop (and sometimes mounted scopes if all it took was a screwdriver, we had no machinery and were not gunsmiths).
My opinion of the "average" hunter's marksmanship is not high.
I also know that while the use of a "bore sighter" can sometimes be spot on it can also be off by up to two feet at 100yds. We charged for bore sighting with the guarantee that if the gun wasn't on "paper" we would come out of the shop to the range and either spot the shots and correct or fire it ourselves to get the impact close enough for the customer to finish. One of the more "interesting" jobs was sighting in the scopes on a pair of Krieghoff over under rifles for a husband and wife. Hers was in .375 H&H and his was a .416 of some variety. With ammo near 100 dollars a box (over 20 years ago) for the .416 (and the recoil of firing off the bench) getting a decent groups quick was a challenge and the two barrels did NOT hit to the same point although certainly close enough for hunting at any range you would use those guns for.

 

[Navalwarrior]

I worked at a commercial range part time for a number of years. 50 firing points at 200 yards. about 25 firing points at 25-50 yds and 95 firing points at 50-100yds (the back stop berm was at 100yds). 10 indoor points at 50ft and feild you could shoot shotguns in. I was the employee often designated to sight in customers rifles. Some days I would arrive around lunch time, sight in a couple of rifles and then get ready to coach a high school rifle team until 5pm. If no rifles to sight in I helped in the gun shop (and sometimes mounted scopes if all it took was a screwdriver, we had no machinery and were not gunsmiths).
My opinion of the "average" hunter's marksmanship is not high.
I also know that while the use of a "bore sighter" can sometimes be spot on it can also be off by up to two feet at 100yds. We charged for bore sighting with the guarantee that if the gun wasn't on "paper" we would come out of the shop to the range and either spot the shots and correct or fire it ourselves to get the impact close enough for the customer to finish. One of the more "interesting" jobs was sighting in the scopes on a pair of Krieghoff over under rifles for a husband and wife. Hers was in .375 H&H and his was a .416 of some variety. With ammo near 100 dollars a box (over 20 years ago) for the .416 (and the recoil of firing off the bench) getting a decent groups quick was a challenge and the two barrels did NOT hit to the same point although certainly close enough for hunting at any range you would use those guns for.

Resp:
Agree with you on the skill of average rifleman. For some reason it seems more people are worried about recoil. One reason as when shooting from the bench, they tend to bend down toward the rifle which puts the top part of their shoulder (where there is little muscle) against the butt. I always stack extra bags on the bench which makes me sit up straight, enabling more shoulder muscle to absorb the rifle's movement. I also do not not stiffen but relax and let the rifle and shoulder move rearward. When shooting my 300 WM I substitute a lesser recoiling rifle between groups fired. For example; I would shoot my 308 (1 fouling with 3 shot group) and then switch to the 300 WM. Normally, the breakdown at the end of my shooting session would be: 1 fouling shot for each rifle (for 2 total). 3 or 4 three shot groups for the 308, and two 3 shot groups for the 300.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Resp:
I am a very good rifle shot, but when I witnessed several yrs ago falling block (Sharps, etc), rolling block and trapdoor rifles being shot at 200 to 600 meters . . . I had a wake up call. Peep sights are extremely precise, just that 'lighting' must be good to see distant targets. For my scout marksmanship merit badge, I shot a Savage 22 with a global front, in addition to the rear peep. However, if I remember correctly the distance was 50 ft.
The last person I trained (early this yr) I used a SIG P6 (225). Normally I use a K frame S&W 38 with 4 inch bbl, but this girl grew up on a farm so was a good rifle shot, and knew to to properly handle guns (no unsafe behavior here). She had applied for a Federal LE position, which used one of the new fangelled composite autos. So She was ahead of most people learning to shoot. We shot once a wk (sometimes twice) where she would load and shoot 4 mags. One day she couldn't focus, so we stopped after 2 mags. I do not teach at 7 yards anymore, as it gives a false sense of skill. 10 yards is my starting point, then progress to 25 yards. If I had time (and they had the desire) I would show/teach them out to 50yrds.

Hello Navalwarrior,

I was just about to say none of the single shots that I own have a telescopic sight but then realised that there is a lone Ruger No. 1 that I believe has a telescope. I haven't messed with it in years and never played with it much when I got it so I don't really remember what condition I left it in. The Sharps' and Winchester guns all have iron sight. I know there is a Soule sight on at least one gun and there is a piece of cr*p sight on a rather plain Sharps rifle but fancy sights would look out of place on that gun.
I have found that the Pedersoli High Grade micrometer sights are a pretty good replacement and don't look too out of place.
They need a bit of cleaning up before mounting, but seem reliable and accurate to me.

I found with those iron sights, I was able to get down to about 1.25 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards but never did any better. I have done better with iron sights on more modern rifles, but not reliably. The problem is that I really don't know if the accuracy limitation is me, the ammunition or the gun. 1.25 inch groups actually look pretty good when the holes are .45 caliber; Just about everything is touching.

I actually have a P6 as well, but have never shot it much. It seems to feel better than the double stack guns but I just don't like the SIG DA trigger very much.

Hello Shortround6,

My Son tried out "Precision Rifle" (Olympic Style Air Rifle) shooting a couple years ago.
When he started, one of the coaches suggested to him that he should wear high lace up boots when shooting because it would immobilize his ankle joints and might make him a bit more steady from the standing position.
Maybe there is something to wearing heavy military style boots.

- Ivan.

 

[Shortround6]

You are right about the angle (leaning forward) but I was limited by the height of benches (sturdy, used telephone poles for legs on some of them) and bench tripod sandbags available.
As a note on both recoil and how holding a gun can affect impact I was at a cast bullet silhouette mach one time where you could enter as many times as you wanted with an additional entry fee each time and ran out of ammo. A Friend offered to let me use his Winchester model 70 in .458 magnum (the cast lead bullet load he used made mcu closer to a 45-70) and while we could swap the gun back and forth at the different distances without too much trouble the rams at 200 meters were a disaster. He consistently shot under and I consistently shot over. Then his girlfriend made the observation that when I held the gun and fired it the muzzle rose about twice as high as when he fired it. It may not have solved the problem but it explained it. 1 1/2 to 2 foot difference in impact.

 

[Torch]

Since I hunt in Colorado in an area where shots can reach out to 300-400 yards it's imperative that you set up your rifle(mine is a Sako Finnlight .300wsm) with the right ammo. Can take time and some expense but it's worth it. Also someone mentioned setting up at the bench, very important. Also how you let your rifle recoil is crucial also with no interference or snagging from the front sling attachment or let the rifle come off the bag or what ever your using to sight in. 2 inches high at 100 yards usually works well and with hand loads and or premium ammo in the right weather conditions you can attain 1/1.5 inch groups pretty easily.