The Guns We Own

mikewint · Oct 17, 2018

Navalwarrior said:
own at least one 30-06.

While I do like the 30-06 I've always felt it was a bit over rated for "big" game. It is IMHO over kill for White-tail (at least here in Ark). Now we do have Elk here but hunting is VERY restricted and done on a lottery system so your chances are very slim. In a by-gone-era I used to go out to Montana and my Uncle and I did take two Grizzly bears and Unk used a 30-06.
IMHO when you start looking at that kind of game the 30-06 is barely sufficient. At 100yds a 180grain is 2504fps - 2506f-lbs. At 200yds 2314fps - 2139f-lbs with a 4inch drop. At 300yds 2131fps and only 1815f-lbs with a 14.6 inch drop. At 400yds 1957fps 1531f-lbs with a 32.9 inch drop
By passing the "elephant" calibers I personally prefer the 300 magnum. Much flatter trajectory and much more power with the same 180 grain.
100yds - 2943fps - 3462f-lbs 200yds - 2697fps - 2907f-lbs with a 2.5 inch drop 300yds - 2464fps - 2426f-lbs and a 9.8 inch drop 400yds - 2242fps - 2009 f-lbs and only 22.9 inch drop.
Since I no longer shoot at anything bigger than a White-tail I traded my Weatherby 300 mag for the 25-06. On the opening day of deer season I simply get a cup of coffee and sit on the deck at sunrise and wait for a nice fat young doe to stroll by. My cousin in Missouri likes to tromp through the woods so If we go together I'll use the 30-30 in the brush

michael rauls · Oct 17, 2018

mikewint said:
While I do like the 30-06 I've always felt it was a bit over rated for "big" game. It is IMHO over kill for White-tail (at least here in Ark). Now we do have Elk here but hunting is VERY restricted and done on a lottery system so your chances are very slim. In a by-gone-era I used to go out to Montana and my Uncle and I did take two Grizzly bears and Unk used a 30-06.
IMHO when you start looking at that kind of game the 30-06 is barely sufficient. At 100yds a 180grain is 2504fps - 2506f-lbs. At 200yds 2314fps - 2139f-lbs with a 4inch drop. At 300yds 2131fps and only 1815f-lbs with a 14.6 inch drop. At 400yds 1957fps 1531f-lbs with a 32.9 inch drop
By passing the "elephant" calibers I personally prefer the 300 magnum. Much flatter trajectory and much more power with the same 180 grain.
100yds - 2943fps - 3462f-lbs 200yds - 2697fps - 2907f-lbs with a 2.5 inch drop 300yds - 2464fps - 2426f-lbs and a 9.8 inch drop 400yds - 2242fps - 2009 f-lbs and only 22.9 inch drop.
Since I no longer shoot at anything bigger than a White-tail I traded my Weatherby 300 mag for the 25-06. On the opening day of deer season I simply get a cup of coffee and sit on the deck at sunrise and wait for a nice fat young doe to stroll by. My cousin in Missouri likes to tromp through the woods so If we go together I'll use the 30-30 in the brush

View attachment 513434 View attachment 513435 View attachment 513436

Assuming those pictures are from the deck of which you speek I envy you living in a place like that. When I retire im outa here( so cal). Headed for Bishop Ca. Different from where you live bit equaly as beautiful.

mikewint · Oct 17, 2018

Yup, the herd is in the front yard and the others are in the back. If you look close at the two does they are at my salt-lick on the stump and the white dots are my rifle target. Life-time fishing and hunting licence here for vets is $35 one time fee

GrauGeist · Oct 17, 2018

Mike's yard looks similar to my Mom's yard over in Trinity County, except the deer there are voracious pests and constantly destroy her garden.

Also, here in Califirnia, you can only take bucks, forked or larger. Our Elk are also on a lottery, the tags available are, I believe 2,000 or less.

When I used to deer hunt, I used the family's old hand-me-down 7x57 Mauser, all original including iron sights and dead-on accuracy.

For bigger game, I'd use my .300 Savage - plenty of knock-down power, excellent penetration and has quite a reach on it.

mikewint · Oct 17, 2018

GrauGeist said:
deer there are voracious pests and constantly destroy her garden.

The same here Dave. Anyone who likes the nasty critters has not had to live with them. The two that I photographed through the deck railing were in the process of raiding my bird-feeder of sunflower seeds. Our first year here we planted all types of decorative flowers and shrubs. Little did we know that they were all deer-treats. If you look at that pic through the railing you can see the corrugated pipe I had to put around the maple tree to keep the deer from stripping and eating all the bark. The only way to have any kind or type of garden is to put a cyclone fence around it topped with razor-wire.
Add to that trying to drive along almost any road without having one or more of the silly creatures run in front of you. A few years back one particularly stupid one was standing on the right-hand side of the road. I slowed down and he crossed in front of me. With the deer safely on the left-hand side I sped up to pass him. Yup the DA made a 180 and ran full force into the side of my car.
The DA neighbor is from the city and "just loves and feeds" the nasty critters bags of "deer corn" so they are particularly populous around the house.

mikewint · Oct 17, 2018

GrauGeist said:
For bigger game, I'd use my .300 Savage - plenty of knock-down power, excellent penetration and has quite a reach on it.

You bet, I loved that .300 Weatherby but there is nothing here that requires that kind of knock-down or range. I hated to part with it but the 25-06 and 30-30 are perfect for around here. I'm a meat hunter and could care less about racks.
Now Missouri has a feral hog problem and some of those tuskers are in the +600lb range. A few are drifting this way. I suspect that if the opportunity presents itself my PTR 91 .308 should do very nicely.

Navalwarrior · Oct 17, 2018

mikewint said:
While I do like the 30-06 I've always felt it was a bit over rated for "big" game. It is IMHO over kill for White-tail (at least here in Ark). Now we do have Elk here but hunting is VERY restricted and done on a lottery system so your chances are very slim. In a by-gone-era I used to go out to Montana and my Uncle and I did take two Grizzly bears and Unk used a 30-06.
IMHO when you start looking at that kind of game the 30-06 is barely sufficient. At 100yds a 180grain is 2504fps - 2506f-lbs. At 200yds 2314fps - 2139f-lbs with a 4inch drop. At 300yds 2131fps and only 1815f-lbs with a 14.6 inch drop. At 400yds 1957fps 1531f-lbs with a 32.9 inch drop
By passing the "elephant" calibers I personally prefer the 300 magnum. Much flatter trajectory and much more power with the same 180 grain.
100yds - 2943fps - 3462f-lbs 200yds - 2697fps - 2907f-lbs with a 2.5 inch drop 300yds - 2464fps - 2426f-lbs and a 9.8 inch drop 400yds - 2242fps - 2009 f-lbs and only 22.9 inch drop.
Since I no longer shoot at anything bigger than a White-tail I traded my Weatherby 300 mag for the 25-06. On the opening day of deer season I simply get a cup of coffee and sit on the deck at sunrise and wait for a nice fat young doe to stroll by. My cousin in Missouri likes to tromp through the woods so If we go together I'll use the 30-30 in the brush

View attachment 513434 View attachment 513435 View attachment 513436

Resp:
I never argue with success. I gave up 'persuasion' many yrs ago as it is a waste of time. Jack O'Connor liked to keep his shots under 300 yards, and took most of his 'big game' with either the 270 or 3006. He did this w a 4X scope.
A year or so ago, a well known guide in Alaska ventured out with a 3006 early one Spring, not expecting to see bears. The iron sighted '06 was loaded with Nosler 220 grain Partitions. Since the magazine held 5 ctgs, it was either a Mauser or Win Mod 70 (wasn't a Springfield '03 as I collect them so would have remembered). I believe it was a Mauser, as most of his dangerous game rifles use this action. To the story; when he knelt down to inspect his traps, a Brown bear suddenly appeared out of the brush 20 yards away. As the bear rose up on his hind legs, the guide put a 220 grainier in the center of his chest. The bear immediately fell back on his butt. The bear again rose up on his hind legs. Again, he received a 220 grainier to the chest, knocking him on his butt. Five shots later, the Brown bear was dead.
Now, most of those reading this . . . would assume that 'well, it took 5 shots so it must be a weak cartridge!' No, it is a Brown bear. Guides always recommend at least two shots on big bears, even if you are using a 416 Rigby. The guide said he gained a healthy respect for the '06. I always take two rifles when traveling any distance to hunt. The 3006 is always one of the two rifles, even when I take a 300 WM.

Shortround6 · Oct 17, 2018

An advantage the 6.5mm has over the .25 (.257) caliber guns is that due to common rifling twists 120 grains is about as heavy as .25 caliber bullets go while 6.5mm (.264 ) will usually use 140 grain bullets (or a bit heavier, there are 160-162 grain round nose available). Perhaps a premium 120 grain .257 will do the job. I don't know, but if heavier bullets are needed the 6.5 is the way to go. I don't believe the difference in diameter amounts to much. The difference in like wrapping one layer of good copy paper around the .257 bullet with no over lap.

Navalwarrior · Oct 17, 2018

Shortround6 said:
An advantage the 6.5mm has over the .25 (.257) caliber guns is that due to common rifling twists 120 grains is about as heavy as .25 caliber bullets go while 6.5mm (.264 ) will usually use 140 grain bullets (or a bit heavier, there are 160-162 grain round nose available). Perhaps a premium 120 grain .257 will do the job. I don't know, but if heavier bullets are needed the 6.5 is the way to go. I don't believe the difference in diameter amounts to much. The difference in like wrapping one layer of good copy paper around the .257 bullet with no over lap.

Resp:
True. I own several 2506s. Can they handle most of the hunting I do? Yes. But if you are in areas where wind is constantly in motion, then calibers of .264, .277 and .284 are better choices as their ability to handle 140-150 grain bullets with high BC drift less on windy days. We argue over speeds and bullet drop, but out to 300 yards or a little more, the 2506, 270 Win, 308 and 3006, the difference in bullet drop is within 2.0 inches or less with these ctg. For some reason the current population of would-be hunters/shooter believes a ctg that doesn't throw a bullet at 'at least' 3000 fps, are ineffective. The last deer I killed (2016) was with a 7mm08, moving a 139 grain Spire pt at 2885 fps from a 24 inch bbl. He dropped at the shot! I will never sell it (it @ matches the old 7X57 Mauser). Go figure.

mikewint · Oct 18, 2018

Navalwarrior said:
Five shots later, the Brown bear was dead.

I had mentioned in my post that Unk and I (I was 11YO at the time. I mostly held the horses & pack mule) took 2 Grizzly bears. Unk was using his Winchester 70 in 30-06 while I had my trusty Marlin .22 LR lever. We had been riding for two days and had seen nothing. Just before sunset on the second day with the light fading we spotted a bear on a hill possibly 300yds?? distant (I was 11) and the bear spotted us. He (bear) started to shamble away. Unk took the shot (he said later that in the fading light he could not see the cross-hairs against the dark bear), the bear went down for a second then turned and charged down the hill towards us. Unk fired again and the bear did a somersault and kept coming. Unk fired two more times and the bear fell each time but got back up and kept coming. His last shot was at about 20 feet or so. The bear went down and this time stayed down though still alive. We eventually found that Unk had hit him with all five shots with the last shattering his spine. There was very little left of the carcass or hide. The bullets had really chewed him up but until that last shot he had plenty of life left.

Shortround6 said:
but if heavier bullets are needed

The Kinetic Energy of anything is KE = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity^2. Thus you can certainly increase KE with more mass (heavier bullet) BUT increasing velocity is much more effective. Doubling mass doubles KE but doubling velocity quadruples the KE.
The old Sharps .50 - .52 caliber rifles shot 700 grain bullets at under 1500 fps. Billy Dixon's famous 1538 yard shot was made with a .50-90 Sharps. (90 grains of black powder though Sharps factory loads were 100 or 110 grains.

michael rauls · Oct 18, 2018

mikewint said:
I had mentioned in my post that Unk and I (I was 11YO at the time. I mostly held the horses & pack mule) took 2 Grizzly bears. Unk was using his Winchester 70 in 30-06 while I had my trusty Marlin .22 LR lever. We had been riding for two days and had seen nothing. Just before sunset on the second day with the light fading we spotted a bear on a hill possibly 300yds?? distant (I was 11) and the bear spotted us. He (bear) started to shamble away. Unk took the shot (he said later that in the fading light he could not see the cross-hairs against the dark bear), the bear went down for a second then turned and charged down the hill towards us. Unk fired again and the bear did a somersault and kept coming. Unk fired two more times and the bear fell each time but got back up and kept coming. His last shot was at about 20 feet or so. The bear went down and this time stayed down though still alive. We eventually found that Unk had hit him with all five shots with the last shattering his spine. There was very little left of the carcass or hide. The bullets had really chewed him up but until that last shot he had plenty of life left.

The Kinetic Energy of anything is KE = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity^2. Thus you can certainly increase KE with more mass (heavier bullet) BUT increasing velocity is much more effective. Doubling mass doubles KE but doubling velocity quadruples the KE.
The old Sharps .50 - .52 caliber rifles shot 700 grain bullets at under 1500 fps. Billy Dixon's famous 1538 yard shot was made with a .50-90 Sharps. (90 grains of black powder though Sharps factory loads were 100 or 110 grains.

That must have been a bit un-nerving to at that age to see a Grizzly bear just keep coming dispite being hit repeatedly. Heck, even at my age I'm pretty sure I might find that situation just a bit stressful.
Have never hunted brown bears but from what ive heard/ read they are really tuff customers.

javlin · Oct 18, 2018

My latest acquisition due to arrive Saturday/Monday won at auction about 2wks ago look hardly used Venezuelan FN49 7 X 57mm to go along with my FN Mauser from the 30's never fired 7 X 57mm.I am thinking the Gustav 1920 Mauser comes out of the cabinet to make room for this one......

Shortround6 · Oct 18, 2018

mikewint said:
The Kinetic Energy of anything is KE = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity^2. Thus you can certainly increase KE with more mass (heavier bullet) BUT increasing velocity is much more effective. Doubling mass doubles KE but doubling velocity quadruples the KE.
.

Quite true but adding velocity isn't all that easy. As a general rule of thumb you need a 20% increase in propellent to get a 10% increase in velocity. .22 Hornet needed 13-14 grains of powder to move a 45 grain bullet at around 2600-2700fps and a .220 swift needs over 40 grains of powder to move a 48 grain bullet at around 4100-4200fps (and a longer barrel)

I admit I am partial to the 6.5 (more than partial) but for someone who is sensitive to recoil it will use 100 grain (or lighter?) bullets for fun shooting, 120 grain bullets for most things and if needed the 140 grain bullets and heavier for special needs. Most 25 caliber rifles will use bullets from 60 -120 grains but bullets lighter than 87 grains can get a bit weird ( My father and Grandfather had .25 Niedner Krags {necked down 30-40 Krags) and at the time used 60 grain hollow points from 25-20 HV loadings. Bullets sometimes didn't make it to the target or 'blew up" on target paper.) My Grandfathers 25 Krag used a 1 in 12 twist ans would not handle bullets over 100 grains very well.

Navalwarrior · Oct 18, 2018

Shortround6 said:
Quite true but adding velocity isn't all that easy. As a general rule of thumb you need a 20% increase in propellent to get a 10% increase in velocity. .22 Hornet needed 13-14 grains of powder to move a 45 grain bullet at around 2600-2700fps and a .220 swift needs over 40 grains of powder to move a 48 grain bullet at around 4100-4200fps (and a longer barrel)

I admit I am partial to the 6.5 (more than partial) but for someone who is sensitive to recoil it will use 100 grain (or lighter?) bullets for fun shooting, 120 grain bullets for most things and if needed the 140 grain bullets and heavier for special needs. Most 25 caliber rifles will use bullets from 60 -120 grains but bullets lighter than 87 grains can get a bit weird ( My father and Grandfather had .25 Niedner Krags {necked down 30-40 Krags) and at the time used 60 grain hollow points from 25-20 HV loadings. Bullets sometimes didn't make it to the target or 'blew up" on target paper.) My Grandfathers 25 Krag used a 1 in 12 twist ans would not handle bullets over 100 grains very well.

Resp:
What brand/model rifle and loads for what game. Thanks.

Shortround6 · Oct 18, 2018

Navalwarrior said:
Resp:
What brand/model rifle and loads for what game. Thanks.

My 6.5s are custom built, the 6.5-08 is a Winchester 70 short action and the 6.5 Rem BR is on a Remington 700 action. I have a 6.5 Rem Magnum on a single shot Rem 4 action but no real experience with it. They are all target rifles with long heavy barrels.
I don't hunt so I am not going to give advice about bullets (what weight or brand for different types of game) that you couldn't get out of a manufacturer's catalog.

I don't think there would be any difference between a 25 caliber rifle using a 117-120 grain bullet and a 6.5 using a 120-123 grain bullet if they were at the same velocity and of the same construction/type. For target use there are a lot more 6.5 target bullets available than 25 caliber target bullets. For varmint hunting there seem to be more 25 caliber bullets available, for big game (or larger than deer?) there are more 6.5 bullets available.

I had, for while, a Winchester 70 in .257 Roberts (made in the late 80s early 90s?) which I never got to shoot well. It would string vertically with the 3rd shot often 4-5 inches above the first and if I set the rifle the aside and shot something else for a while I could go back to it and get another vertical string. Glass bedding and recrowning helped but did not cure. But 1 rifle doesn't prove anything one way or another.

Navalwarrior · Oct 18, 2018

Shortround6 said:
My 6.5s are custom built, the 6.5-08 is a Winchester 70 short action and the 6.5 Rem BR is on a Remington 700 action. I have a 6.5 Rem Magnum on a single shot Rem 4 action but no real experience with it. They are all target rifles with long heavy barrels.
I don't hunt so I am not going to give advice about bullets (what weight or brand for different types of game) that you couldn't get out of a manufacturer's catalog.

I don't think there would be any difference between a 25 caliber rifle using a 117-120 grain bullet and a 6.5 using a 120-123 grain bullet if they were at the same velocity and of the same construction/type. For target use there are a lot more 6.5 target bullets available than 25 caliber target bullets. For varmint hunting there seem to be more 25 caliber bullets available, for big game (or larger than deer?) there are more 6.5 bullets available.

I had, for while, a Winchester 70 in .257 Roberts (made in the late 80s early 90s?) which I never got to shoot well. It would string vertically with the 3rd shot often 4-5 inches above the first and if I set the rifle the aside and shot something else for a while I could go back to it and get another vertical string. Glass bedding and recrowning helped but did not cure. But 1 rifle doesn't prove anything one way or another.

Resp:
A gunsmith friend found that the 6.5 RM opened up to 'improved' gets outstanding velocity. He does this by opening up the rear of a short action Rem (not sure if he used a 700 or a Mod 7) receiver. He builds his own magazine box. This procedure allows bullets to be seated out (am unsure how far) where he can get well over the velocity expected.
The only .264 that I have is a 260 Rem on a Browning A Bolt. Killed a nice 8 pt WT in 2016 with it. The load was a Sierra 120 gr flat base Spitzer at 2925 FPS. I cannot tell the difference in bullet effect between it and my 7mm08 on deer.

wlewisiii · Oct 18, 2018

Added a Taurus PT92 last weekend and am thinking evil thoughts about a Remington 770 (I think it was, synthetic stock, cheap scope, no real sights) in .243 for cheap at the pawn shop.

Navalwarrior · Oct 18, 2018

wlewisiii said:
Added a Taurus PT92 last weekend and am thinking evil thoughts about a Remington 770 (I think it was, synthetic stock, cheap scope, no real sights) in .243 for cheap at the pawn shop.

Resp:
Save your money and buy a Rem 700. It will last longer.

javlin · Oct 18, 2018

wlewisiii said:
Added a Taurus PT92 last weekend and am thinking evil thoughts about a Remington 770 (I think it was, synthetic stock, cheap scope, no real sights) in .243 for cheap at the pawn shop.

I check the production date on the Remington I am not big into civilian rifles but Remington had some issues with one of there rifles that partially led to the bankruptcy along with what would be obvious quality control issues.

javlin · Oct 18, 2018

Navalwarrior said:
Resp:
Save your money and buy a Rem 700. It will last longer.

I think that's the answer I was looking for!You mean not go Kaboom?

The Guns We Own

Captain

Tech Sergeant

Captain

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Captain

Captain

Staff Sergeant

Major General

Staff Sergeant

Captain

Tech Sergeant

2nd Lieutenant

Major General

Staff Sergeant

Major General

Staff Sergeant

Staff Sergeant

Staff Sergeant

2nd Lieutenant

2nd Lieutenant

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads