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- #21
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
I wonder what a Italian do in that cold enviroment, grazie Paolo and thank you Mic for resizing the 12,7 mm ammo squematic.
The Italian Guns.
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Your welcome Charles, dont know if you have seen this one but you may find it useful if you havent.
I found it here.
Grenades, Mines and Boobytraps
I found it here.
Grenades, Mines and Boobytraps
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- #23
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Good stuff, particulary in italian bombs, Ill try to cut and paste some of that material later, when the information about guns is run out 
Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 12,7 mm.
One of the few achievements of the Regia Aeronautica in the interwar period was the hindsight for the need of a heavy caliber machinegun to deal with the increase size and durability of the new generation of combat aircrafts.
While many Air Forces still struggled in 1939 and 1940 with a collection of rifle caliber machineguns like the RAF and the Luftwaffe ( and the fact that the british pilots had to defend its homeland with 7,7 mm peashooters is still a bonenchilling one, at list for me) the Italians already were enjoying the services of a reliable half inch caliber machinegun.
Inside the nose turret, Fiat BR 20
The Breda S.A.F.A.T 12,7 mm was a belt fed, short recoil operated weapon, essentially a italian modified Browning M1921 mechanism, but shorter and slightly less heavy than the US machinegun.
It was mounted experimentally first in the biplane CR 30 and was introduced in large scale in the CR 32 fighter. There was available in fixed wing, fixed synchronizated and defensive turret emplacements. The rate a fire wasnt high as a MG 131 and its muzzle velocity didnt match the one of the US M2 50caliber, but the SAFAT was a well constructed, sturdy and sound design that rarely jammed in action.
Above fuselage synchronizated, Fiat CR 32.
Unfortunately for the italian fighter pilots their aeronautical designers had the depressing tendendy to emplace only a pair above the engine wich reduced the rate of fire. Probably with 4 or 6 Bredas in the wings, shooting outside the propeller arc the Macchis, Reggianes and Fiats would made a better oponents in WW2.
Synchronizated, Fiat CR 42 Falco.
Synchronizated, Reggiane Re 2001, note the San Marco Reflex gunsight.
3 Safat 12,7 mm fixed in the nose, Breda Ba 88 attack bomber.
Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 12,7 mm.
One of the few achievements of the Regia Aeronautica in the interwar period was the hindsight for the need of a heavy caliber machinegun to deal with the increase size and durability of the new generation of combat aircrafts.
While many Air Forces still struggled in 1939 and 1940 with a collection of rifle caliber machineguns like the RAF and the Luftwaffe ( and the fact that the british pilots had to defend its homeland with 7,7 mm peashooters is still a bonenchilling one, at list for me) the Italians already were enjoying the services of a reliable half inch caliber machinegun.
Inside the nose turret, Fiat BR 20
The Breda S.A.F.A.T 12,7 mm was a belt fed, short recoil operated weapon, essentially a italian modified Browning M1921 mechanism, but shorter and slightly less heavy than the US machinegun.
It was mounted experimentally first in the biplane CR 30 and was introduced in large scale in the CR 32 fighter. There was available in fixed wing, fixed synchronizated and defensive turret emplacements. The rate a fire wasnt high as a MG 131 and its muzzle velocity didnt match the one of the US M2 50caliber, but the SAFAT was a well constructed, sturdy and sound design that rarely jammed in action.
Above fuselage synchronizated, Fiat CR 32.
Unfortunately for the italian fighter pilots their aeronautical designers had the depressing tendendy to emplace only a pair above the engine wich reduced the rate of fire. Probably with 4 or 6 Bredas in the wings, shooting outside the propeller arc the Macchis, Reggianes and Fiats would made a better oponents in WW2.
Synchronizated, Fiat CR 42 Falco.
Synchronizated, Reggiane Re 2001, note the San Marco Reflex gunsight.
3 Safat 12,7 mm fixed in the nose, Breda Ba 88 attack bomber.
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paolomiana
Airman
Dear CharlesBronson,
It's nice to see that everyone focus on the cold...... actually the problem is the darkness......8:45 AM and just started the sunshine 8) .
The italian 12.7 machine gun wasn't that bed. expecially after that Spanish Civil War combat lesson force the development of the "tipo perforante".
Guys like Gabrielli and Castoldi are aware of the lack of firepower of their "serie 0" fighters but, due to the high empty weight of the airframes and lack of power of the engines weren't able to put more than two machineguns.
Take in mind that the "serie 0" airplanes were initially designed as wooden aircraft.......
The problem was probably generated by the italian chronic lack of good bauxite, that means no good dural, that means no light airframes.
Once I was able to read a paper of Gabrielli (around 1940-41) where he still state the superiority of wooden aircraft on metal ones. The political version to admit: we have no good allumunium alloys.
best regards
Paolo
It's nice to see that everyone focus on the cold...... actually the problem is the darkness......8:45 AM and just started the sunshine 8) .
The italian 12.7 machine gun wasn't that bed. expecially after that Spanish Civil War combat lesson force the development of the "tipo perforante".
Guys like Gabrielli and Castoldi are aware of the lack of firepower of their "serie 0" fighters but, due to the high empty weight of the airframes and lack of power of the engines weren't able to put more than two machineguns.
Take in mind that the "serie 0" airplanes were initially designed as wooden aircraft.......
The problem was probably generated by the italian chronic lack of good bauxite, that means no good dural, that means no light airframes.
Once I was able to read a paper of Gabrielli (around 1940-41) where he still state the superiority of wooden aircraft on metal ones. The political version to admit: we have no good allumunium alloys.
best regards
Paolo
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- #25
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Not to mention the finnish language that is a bit...how to say...tricky ?
Interesting, that could explain the excessive use of chrome moly steel tubing seen in some aircraft and also the failure of the Breda 88.
Aniway I think a couple more of 12,7mm in the wing s of Mc 202 and Re-2001 didnt hurt the performance so bad.
Breda SAFAT 12,7 mm in AAA emplacement , Aviano 1944.
Interesting, that could explain the excessive use of chrome moly steel tubing seen in some aircraft and also the failure of the Breda 88.
Aniway I think a couple more of 12,7mm in the wing s of Mc 202 and Re-2001 didnt hurt the performance so bad.
Breda SAFAT 12,7 mm in AAA emplacement , Aviano 1944.
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paolomiana
Airman
Tervetuloa (welcome) Charles Bronson...... tricky could be an optimistic point of view: no connection whit almost any latin word, but this is a part of the quest to live aboard. (btw apparently all finnish speak an excellent English, by far better than mine)
For the fighters the heavy strut generate another problem: I'm not sure about the numbers but are grossly right, to produce a MC202 it takes 80% more of manhour in respect of a Me.109 (leaving apart a P.51 produced in around 1/3 of a Macchi and by low trianed personnel)
clearly another industrial structure....
The poor alluminium alloy could also explain the odd CRDA (Cantieri Riuniti dell'Adriatico) to produce the fusoleages..... three plywood skins glued togheter on a jig (? I'm not sure about this word..... a sort reference structure...) and removed once dry! a very artigianal process.
Paolo
ooops almost forgot, where are this wonderful pictures from?
For the fighters the heavy strut generate another problem: I'm not sure about the numbers but are grossly right, to produce a MC202 it takes 80% more of manhour in respect of a Me.109 (leaving apart a P.51 produced in around 1/3 of a Macchi and by low trianed personnel)
clearly another industrial structure....
The poor alluminium alloy could also explain the odd CRDA (Cantieri Riuniti dell'Adriatico) to produce the fusoleages..... three plywood skins glued togheter on a jig (? I'm not sure about this word..... a sort reference structure...) and removed once dry! a very artigianal process.
Paolo
ooops almost forgot, where are this wonderful pictures from?
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- #28
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Definately , I seen some finnish sites looking for info about antitank rifles and the language is crazy, impossible I might say. I can understand very well the english, italian and portuguese and to be able to make some short conversations in german but I think the suomen is beyond my skills.
The pictures are extracted form several "Ali d Italia" and "Ali d Italia mini" series, plus the Reggiane history and legacy collection ( really fat books those)
Grazie Bruno, I mixed up the saints, every comment or amendment is welcome.
Breda S.A.F.A.T 12,7mm scans from the Spanish Air force handbook ( they used it in in the He-111 and Ha-1112).
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- #29
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
By the way the He-111 was used in the Spanish Air Force up to 1960s, not only as bomber but also as COIN aircraft in a late stage.
The trusty Heinkel bomber end up with a rare combination of british engines, german airframe, and italian machineguns, the Bredas 12,7mm were used for strafing the morrocan guerrilla at low altitude.
Scan of the Spanish Air Force (ejercito Del aire) continues, internal components on the 12,7 mm MG.
The trusty Heinkel bomber end up with a rare combination of british engines, german airframe, and italian machineguns, the Bredas 12,7mm were used for strafing the morrocan guerrilla at low altitude.
Scan of the Spanish Air Force (ejercito Del aire) continues, internal components on the 12,7 mm MG.
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- #31
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
No se como se arman los PDF solamente se usarlos. De todas maneras te lo envio por privado si queres.
Breda in remote controlled G1 and Z2 turrets in Piaggio P-108 bomber
Waist emplacement in the same bomber.
Characteristicas Breda S.A.F.A.T 12,7 mm
Caliber: 12,7x81 mm semirimmed.
Operation: Short recoil with muzzle booster.
Refrigeration: air
Weight: 26,5 kg
Charging; manually charged in in flexible mounting plus CR-32, 42 and Re-2000/2001 fittings. The others pneumatically charged.
Rate of fire: 700 rpm
Muzzle velocity: 765 mps.
Breda in remote controlled G1 and Z2 turrets in Piaggio P-108 bomber
Waist emplacement in the same bomber.
Characteristicas Breda S.A.F.A.T 12,7 mm
Caliber: 12,7x81 mm semirimmed.
Operation: Short recoil with muzzle booster.
Refrigeration: air
Weight: 26,5 kg
Charging; manually charged in in flexible mounting plus CR-32, 42 and Re-2000/2001 fittings. The others pneumatically charged.
Rate of fire: 700 rpm
Muzzle velocity: 765 mps.
Te paso mi e-mail
[email protected]
Gracias.
Te hago un intercambio con otro manual de reconocimiento de la época.
[email protected]
Gracias.
Te hago un intercambio con otro manual de reconocimiento de la época.
- Thread starter
- #33
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Bien, te lo estoy enviando. Tambien tengo algunos videos caseros que...no mejor no, olvida eso ultimo.
Scotti M1933 cal 12,7mm
Alfredo Scotti had also one of its gas operated guns modified to shoot the heavy machinegun caliber. It was adopted in a more limited manner than the Breda .50, mostly for turret defensive emplacements in several types of bombers, recce and transports. The rate of fire was slightly higher than its predecessor. Probably the best characteristics was the lesser weight.
The open bolt action favoured refrigeration and avoided cook-off of the ammunition after long burst, but again denied the adaptation of a synchronization mechanism.
Scotti also proposed a wing variant with remote charging but it did not entered in service in Service with the Regia Aeronautica probably because at that time the italians were interested in a 20 mm weapon.
Ventral turret, Savoia SM 84 bomber.
- Lancia type 1 dorsal turret above Fiat RS 14
- Operator of a Lancia type 1 turret depicted inside the CANT Z 1007 bomber. the aim was obtained with a periscopic articulated gunsight
Scotti M1933 cal 12,7mm
Alfredo Scotti had also one of its gas operated guns modified to shoot the heavy machinegun caliber. It was adopted in a more limited manner than the Breda .50, mostly for turret defensive emplacements in several types of bombers, recce and transports. The rate of fire was slightly higher than its predecessor. Probably the best characteristics was the lesser weight.
The open bolt action favoured refrigeration and avoided cook-off of the ammunition after long burst, but again denied the adaptation of a synchronization mechanism.
Scotti also proposed a wing variant with remote charging but it did not entered in service in Service with the Regia Aeronautica probably because at that time the italians were interested in a 20 mm weapon.
Ventral turret, Savoia SM 84 bomber.
- Lancia type 1 dorsal turret above Fiat RS 14
- Operator of a Lancia type 1 turret depicted inside the CANT Z 1007 bomber. the aim was obtained with a periscopic articulated gunsight
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Hi Charles I've a question for you about Scotti guns:
You wrote Scotti guns couldn't be synchronized, due to their open bolt operating principle. But, in spite of the fact that Breda Safat guns were "open bolt" weapons too, they could be synchronized.
Both 7,7mm and 12,7mm Breda-Safat operated in the same way: when the burst was interrupted the bolt remained in its open position, but:
a) the "spent" cartridge" was already been ejected out of the weapon during the previous backward bolt movement;
b) the "new" cartridge was already in the barrel (already in axis with the barrel , just waiting to be pushed into its firing chamber and to be fired) since, again, during the previous bolt backward movement, it had been picked up from the feed.
So the questions are: was the forward movement of Scotti bolt simply slower (bigger inertia?) or less predictable than the one of Breda Safat? Had the Scotti gun to operate like the Lewis gun that had to catch a new cartridge from the feed during its forward movement (differently from Safat)? Both factors?
As far as I know, the longer and the less predictable (that in turns, due to the need to consider worst cases, means long) the time from the start of the firing sequence to the moment the projectile reaches the prop blades, the less is the possibility for a weapon to be synchronized. Priming systems, cartridge propellant burning time (mainly for some cannon cartridges), low average bolt speeds (big bolt mass, that is inertia), low bullet muzzle velocities, big distances between gun muzzle and propeller blades, were all unfavourable factors for a gun to be synchronized.
Coming back to Scotti vs Breda comparison, we can exclude the influence of the cartridge type (both weapons used the same cartridges) and other factors like the positioning of the gun on the aircraft, since Breda and Scotti sizes were comparable.
Since it is not clear to me the actual Scotti mechanism, which was, according to your information, the detail preventing Scotti gun, to be synchronized with aircraft props?
Thanks in advance for your answer.
You wrote Scotti guns couldn't be synchronized, due to their open bolt operating principle. But, in spite of the fact that Breda Safat guns were "open bolt" weapons too, they could be synchronized.
Both 7,7mm and 12,7mm Breda-Safat operated in the same way: when the burst was interrupted the bolt remained in its open position, but:
a) the "spent" cartridge" was already been ejected out of the weapon during the previous backward bolt movement;
b) the "new" cartridge was already in the barrel (already in axis with the barrel , just waiting to be pushed into its firing chamber and to be fired) since, again, during the previous bolt backward movement, it had been picked up from the feed.
So the questions are: was the forward movement of Scotti bolt simply slower (bigger inertia?) or less predictable than the one of Breda Safat? Had the Scotti gun to operate like the Lewis gun that had to catch a new cartridge from the feed during its forward movement (differently from Safat)? Both factors?
As far as I know, the longer and the less predictable (that in turns, due to the need to consider worst cases, means long) the time from the start of the firing sequence to the moment the projectile reaches the prop blades, the less is the possibility for a weapon to be synchronized. Priming systems, cartridge propellant burning time (mainly for some cannon cartridges), low average bolt speeds (big bolt mass, that is inertia), low bullet muzzle velocities, big distances between gun muzzle and propeller blades, were all unfavourable factors for a gun to be synchronized.
Coming back to Scotti vs Breda comparison, we can exclude the influence of the cartridge type (both weapons used the same cartridges) and other factors like the positioning of the gun on the aircraft, since Breda and Scotti sizes were comparable.
Since it is not clear to me the actual Scotti mechanism, which was, according to your information, the detail preventing Scotti gun, to be synchronized with aircraft props?
Thanks in advance for your answer.
joy17782
Airman 1st Class
Very cool stuff , I always like there airplanes ,even know alot of them were out of date , do you know if they carried anything heavier, like a 50 cal or 20 mm????
- Thread starter
- #36
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
The 12,7mm caliber is .50. A inch = 25,4 mm meaning 12,7mm is the same as .50 caliber. The cartrigde case was different however.
They did use a 20mm, the Mauser MG 151/20.
All the information, squematics and pictures about the Breda guns I ve posted already, sorry but I cant help you with more insight information.
- Thread starter
- #38
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
You are welcome.8)
Side fuselage Scottis, P-108.
Characteristics Scotti M1933:
Caliber: 12,7x81 semirimmed
Action: gas operated , rotating bolt lock.
Refrigeration: air
Feeding: desintegrable metallic belt
Charging; manually charged
Lenght: 1170mm
Rate of fire: 730-750 rounds per minute
Muzzle velocity: 760 mps.
Weight: 21 kg.
Side fuselage Scottis, P-108.
Characteristics Scotti M1933:
Caliber: 12,7x81 semirimmed
Action: gas operated , rotating bolt lock.
Refrigeration: air
Feeding: desintegrable metallic belt
Charging; manually charged
Lenght: 1170mm
Rate of fire: 730-750 rounds per minute
Muzzle velocity: 760 mps.
Weight: 21 kg.
