The Lancaster as a potential nuclear bomber in 1945
- Thread starter nuuumannn
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I've often read there wasn't any real fire lit under getting Bomber Command better aircraft at a certain point late in the war.
From SAM Publications:
Although the prototype Lincoln first flew on the 9th June 1944, it was not until the 9th November 1944 that the second prototype took to the air. This gives some indication of the changing pace of the war, and the low priority with which the Lancaster's replacement was viewed. By the end of 1944, Lancasters were fully meeting the requirements of Bomber Command, and there was little need to quickly bring into production a replacement. Which the changing tide of war, even the manufacturers themselves were starting to consider post-war requirements, and so Avro was more concerned with new passenger-carrying aircraft (like the York and Tudor) then the Lincoln.
pinehilljoe
Senior Airman
- 681
- May 1, 2016
I'm late to this thread, but wouldnt the B-32 have been rushed in as better nuclear bomb carrier? The B-29 was provided to the UK to give the RAF nuclear capability.
- Thread starter
- #104
But not by August 1945 and again, it's not American, not to mention ignoring the issue of Iwo Jima and Okinawa being in range of Japanese aircraft.
- Thread starter
- #105
Yup, as I mentioned, the first Lincolns did not arrive at squadron level until August 1945, only three equipping 57 Squadron at that time.
Why not? Okinawa was in use an a USAAF base by then.
BTW, here's a link to an article on the planned development and deployment of long range Lancasters and Lincolns to the far east:
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/docume...AS_Air_Land_Co-op_in_Op_TELIC_Tiger_Force.pdf
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
See page 1 post #4 of this thread for the reason.
The atomic bomber and support structure had to be TOTALLY out of reach of Japanese air strikes, no equivocation in that equation.
In July/August 1945, Okinawa was still able to be attacked by Japanese air power.
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special ed
1st Sergeant
- 5,064
- May 13, 2018
A family friend, passed away two years ago, was with the first unit of anti-aircraft artillery to land and as soon as set up, his gun team was the first AA to shoot down a Betty during a low altitude night attack. Although the island was supposed to be secured, there were still attacks from Japanese soldiers. One night he remembered a small group infiltrated and killed a number of P-51 pilots in their tents.
Kevin J
Banned
I've been reading your document, fascinating stuff, but to me the saddle tank option looks like turning any mission into a suicide mission if you get intercepted. Likewise removing the mid upper turret. It all looks like ignoring the lessons learnt during the battles over Europe.
Tinian was easily within reach of IJ twin and single engined Kamikaze attacks:
Japanese air attacks on the Mariana Islands - Wikipedia
In any event, using in air refuelling, the Lancaster could deliver the bomb from Tinian.
The saddle tanks would be empty by the time the aircraft was within reach of interceptors. Historically the USAAF delivered the A-bombs by formations consisting of two aircraft and they met no opposition whatsoever.
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 5,064
- May 13, 2018
I just finished reading Shinpachi's old thread "IJA secret intelligence team at Chofu". It's a very good read and tells how USAAF could have lost the mission.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I think you'll find the Silverplate modified B-29s performed a lot different if you're going to compare a stock Mk VI to a stock B-29
AIUI the initial mods were to fit the aircraft to carry larger bombs and then the aircraft were specially lightened with higher performance engines:
Project Silverplate
Of course the Lancaster would benefit from a similar set of mods (to reduce armament and armour).
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 5,064
- May 13, 2018
Silverplate mods were done in the US. Where would the Lancaster mods have happened. By involving a second country, security would have been impossible along with the British wanting to have their say with every change. Security in the US was difficult enough. When special requirements were needed, Tibbets only had to mention Silverplate.
Lots of people were on the Manhattan security clearance list including Cdn PM Mackenzie King.
In any event if the USAAF had used the Lancaster or Lincoln they would have been free to mod them as they saw fit. Given that these aircraft could carry tallboy bombs, it would not have seemed unusual for the USAAF to have formed a special squadron to fly reverse L-L Lancasters. Of course the RCAF could have been assigned the task...
special ed
1st Sergeant
- 5,064
- May 13, 2018
RCAF would have been the logical choice in that event.
- Thread starter
- #118
Again though, we are looking at timelines. As is often the case in this forum, could'a, would'a, should'a. The Lanc VI was not put into production, the Lincoln was not built in sufficient numbers by that time and neither were American - an important point you're ignoring. Are we to assume an alteration of timeline? I doubt the 'seriously considered' quote to be frank; that the option was discussed is well known by now, but it is highly unlikely that any further action in this regard was carried out. I doubt any real feasibility studies (unless anyone can provide any evidence of such a thing) were carried out, which would have exposed the primary weakness of using the Lancaster; its performance was just not up to scratch.
The Americans wanted Tinian because of its distance from Japan and the infrastructure already in place and when decisions were initially made to plan the raids, neither Okinawa nor Iwo Jima could really be considered feasible, being firmly in Japanese hands. The latter was captured in March 1945 and the former in April. Hinging bets on availability of these islands based on some really big unknowns for such an important raid was not going to enter the equation, let's be serious.
Tiger Force was an interesting undertaking but was dependent on the end of war in Europe to free up crews and aircraft, which at the time investigations were being undertaken in 1944 was entirely uncertain and realistically, once 8 May 1945 happens, we are really looking at late 1945, early 1946 before the RAF is equipped with in-flight refuelling capability and sufficient numbers of long range bombers to be effective, that is, only if the work talked about in that RAF paper was seriously undertaken.
The Tiger Force paper is only of interest in terms of what the Lancaster and Lincoln were capable of in terms of range and payload.
IIRC, the designer of the Lancaster was asked if the Lancaster could carry a bomb with the dimensions of "Fat Man" and he answered in the affirmative.
The Silverplate B-29s were not production aircraft either, but were instead production aircraft given extensive mods.
If at some point, say 1 Jan 1944, the USAAF and Groves decided that the B-29 was too much of a long shot to carry the bomb (and the troubling unreliability of it's engines must have been a consideration) , could the Lancaster/Lincoln have done the job if given the extra priority and resources that went into the Silverplate B-29s?
For example, Roosevelt tells Churchill and PM King that the USAAF needs to drop Tallboys on Japan and requests A-1 priority for the Lancaster and Lincoln via reverse LL and/or requests that X number of Lancasters and Lincolns be turned over to the USAAF for modification in the USA.
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- #120
Can you verify that with a source, please?
Again, you're ignoring the fundamental fact that neither the Lanc or the Lincoln are American. In 1944, flying from the Marianas was the only option. Without viable (in-service) in-flight refuelling, both have to be ruled out owing to their insufficient performance. The best and only option was to throw money and resources at the B-29 until it worked, or examine other US options. I just don't think the British aircraft were considered enough, firstly because they weren't American; they were dismissed early on for this reason, and then because their performance wouldn't cut it.
Even 'Silverplating' them wouldn't give either type sufficient performance to make a return flight from Tinian safely. As I quoted earlier, the Lanc would be flying at 15,000 ft at speeds lower than 200 mph. Sure, the Lincoln and the Lanc VI offer better performance, but not the same as that of the B-29.
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