The mustang and the 332nd
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fubar57
General
I don't think they were any better or worse than any other other FG
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Luftwaffe pilots respected the P-51, but they weren't afraid of it.
Most of the Experten (Luftwaffe Aces) gave high praise to the P-51, but you'll also find that they had several victories over the P-51.
And yes, the Mustang had six .50s, the P-47 had eight .50s and so on, but the Bf109 and Fw190 had a wide range of armament up to 30mm cannon - so in the end, it was up to the pilot, not the machine, to make the difference.
Most of the Experten (Luftwaffe Aces) gave high praise to the P-51, but you'll also find that they had several victories over the P-51.
And yes, the Mustang had six .50s, the P-47 had eight .50s and so on, but the Bf109 and Fw190 had a wide range of armament up to 30mm cannon - so in the end, it was up to the pilot, not the machine, to make the difference.
- Thread starter
- #4
And that's where the 332nd comes in they were good piolits I don't care what they say .
fubar57
General
Some people still believe the myth of the 33nd
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
This: "I don't care what they say" simply states that you are more interested in good feels than historical context.
There were better FGs than the 332nd, like the 335th, for example.
And in contrast, there were a few Me262 aces that actually hunted P-51s. An invincible P-51D with it's amazing six .50's stood zero chance of survival when hit by a 30mm minengeschoss round from the Me262's MK108 cannon.
So, yeah...there is that.
- Thread starter
- #7
That's true but your MK108 was so slow and hard to aim you'd never hit the P-51
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
omg...what?
1,770 fps is slow?
The P-51D's top speed was about 473mph, which breaks down to 693.7fps.
The 30mm is traveling at 1,206.8 mph - which is a little faster than the Mustang...
1,770 fps is slow?
The P-51D's top speed was about 473mph, which breaks down to 693.7fps.
The 30mm is traveling at 1,206.8 mph - which is a little faster than the Mustang...
- Thread starter
- #9
I've always heard the 30mm was slow and hard to use
fubar57
General
From "Me 262 vs P-51 Mustang Europe 1944 - 45" by Robert Forsyth
".....One of the highest known scorers against the Mustangs was Hauptmann Franz Schall of Kommando Nowotny and 10./JG 7, who is credited with ten shot down between late October 1944 and April 10, 1945. Schall's comrade Major Georg‑Peter Eder is credited with six P‑51s destroyed, plus a probable, between October 1944 and May 1945, including, remarkably, three in one day on November 8, with two more claimed the following day. Several other pilots achieved multiple victories over P‑51s, notably Oberleutnant Rudolf Rademacher of 11./JG 7 (four kills) and Walter Schuck of Stab and 3./JG 7 (four kills)....."
".....One of the highest known scorers against the Mustangs was Hauptmann Franz Schall of Kommando Nowotny and 10./JG 7, who is credited with ten shot down between late October 1944 and April 10, 1945. Schall's comrade Major Georg‑Peter Eder is credited with six P‑51s destroyed, plus a probable, between October 1944 and May 1945, including, remarkably, three in one day on November 8, with two more claimed the following day. Several other pilots achieved multiple victories over P‑51s, notably Oberleutnant Rudolf Rademacher of 11./JG 7 (four kills) and Walter Schuck of Stab and 3./JG 7 (four kills)....."
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 43,386
- Mar 26, 2007
If something is average (mean) then some are better and some are worse. For the Germans the mot important factor is escorts or no escorts, then many or few escorts, the actual type and which group they were from isnt so important. Did German pilots know or note which FG they were up against?
The idea of training in an airforce is not to produce one Usain Bolt but to produce hundreds who can do 100m in less than 11 seconds, to push up the average.
The idea of training in an airforce is not to produce one Usain Bolt but to produce hundreds who can do 100m in less than 11 seconds, to push up the average.
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Howard Gibson
Senior Airman
The Mk108 had a low muzzle velocity compared to other aircraft weapons. The problem with a (relatively) low muzzle velocity is that you need to pull much more lead on the aircraft you are shooting at. You can hit a B-17 fairly easily. Mustangs are known to turn now and then. This was a problem during the Battle of Britain when the Germans used MGFFs against Hurricanes and Spitfires.
Another problem is the Bf109s mixed armament. Chasing a P-47 or P-51, you have to decide whether to hit him with the two 13mm machine guns or the 30mm cannon.
drgondog
Major
Define 'very good'? and by contrast 'average or poor'?
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 903
- Feb 16, 2013
Within a few hundred metres, both weapons will hit about the same area. Its not like the cannon was aimed at the ground, while the machine guns were aimed at the sky
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Going by memory, the MK108 armed aircraft would open up within 690 meters on bombers, compensating for the drop (this was an attempt to avoid the defensive .50 MGs) but when engaged in a fight, the distances were close enough that the low velocity/drop was not a factor.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Something tells me there were very few fighter pilots -- then or now -- who paid much if any attention to any fear they might or might not be feeling. I suspect they were a little too busy for that sort of thing. You simply don't have the time for it when SHTF.
Were the Bf109 MGs and cannon firing on the same axis/plane? If I were a German pilot I would set them (if possible) such that the two hit the same point at a certain distance in front. I think I remember
BiffF15
saying the F15 guns were set such that with ballistic drop the munitions crossed the aiming point at a set distance in front.
BiffF15
saying the F15 guns were set such that with ballistic drop the munitions crossed the aiming point at a set distance in front.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Quite some time back, there was a discussion about this, I beleive Erich shared the specs - but I can't recall the thread, this was perhaps 10 years ago?Were the Bf109 MGs and cannon firing on the same axis/plane? If I were a German pilot I would set them (if possible) such that the two hit the same point at a certain distance in front. I think I remember
Anyway, I recall that they did set a point of convergence that accounted for the motor cannon.
However, for the rustsatze pods, I don't remember what the formula was.
Those canny pilots. copying all my ideas. It seems the logical thing to do.
