The one most over-rated plane of WWII

FLYBOYJ · Nov 18, 2021

MCamp said:
Maybe, the Brewster were too fragile for carrier operations thus the F4F was clearly better in that situation, though I imagine there would have been more damage on Henderson landings as well but to a lesser degree. Buffalo was also less well armed as the wildcat. Carl was an expert pilot so posssibly true for him but lesser pilots would likely not have done as well

The F2A-1 did have some landing gear issues when first deployed, there is nothing that I ever seen to say "they were too frail." Blackburn mentioned in "Jolly Rogers" that the F2A handled better on the ground than the F4F!

The F2F had a short stint where it was "state of the art" but the way aviation was advancing in the late 30s/ early 40s it was quickly eclipsed and had little or no room for growth. The F4F was in the same situation but was able to hold it's own. Lastly Brewster was a horribly run company so the nail was in the coffin.

MCamp · Nov 18, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
The F2A-1 did have some landing gear issues when first deployed, there is nothing that I ever seen to say "they were too frail." Blackburn mentioned in "Jolly Rogers" that the F2A handled better on the ground than the F4F!

The F2F had a short stint where it was "state of the art" but the way aviation was advancing in the late 30s/ early 40s it was quickly eclipsed and had little or no room for growth. The F4F was in the same situation but was able to hold it's own. Lastly Brewster was a horribly run company so the nail was on the coffin.

Should have clarified that it was the gear that was 90% of the fragile issue
Brester was the American Blackburn lol

FLYBOYJ · Nov 18, 2021

MCamp said:
Should have clarified that it was the gear that was 90% of the fragile issue

And eventually corrected but it didn't help with it's ultimate longevity.

MCamp · Nov 18, 2021

This video helps explain the zero be F4F very well, the whole channel is exceptional. It explains whike the intial dive speed was similar the never exceed speed for the zero was 410 mph and was very hard to control above 350mph. whike the f4f had no VNE speed and thus was drag limited and thus could dive at 540 mph while under control

Thumpalumpacus · Nov 18, 2021

MCamp said:
Carl was an expert pilot so posssibly true for him but lesser pilots would likely not have done as well

When we look at these planes as a weapons system, the pilot is the processing power of the weapons system.

Clayton Magnet · Nov 18, 2021

NTGray said:
That whole Flying Tigers remark was a side comment, and when/if I make a separate discussion from it, it will be in the context of the P-40 being an "obsolete" plane by the time the war started

The P-40 wasn't obsolete by the time the war started, because it wasn't in service until a year AFTER it started.

MCamp · Nov 18, 2021

Clayton Magnet said:
The P-40 wasn't obsolete by the time the war started, because it wasn't in service until a year AFTER it started.

Correct and it wasn't obsolete as it did a lot of good work in the MTO and other areas

Thumpalumpacus · Nov 18, 2021

Clayton Magnet said:
The P-40 wasn't obsolete by the time the war started, because it wasn't in service until a year AFTER it started.

Keeping in mind -- again -- how the pilot used the plane, the P-40 was a dangerous opponent into 1943, and later in CBI where Japanese fighters weren't advancing so much as their German counterparts.

FLYBOYJ · Nov 18, 2021

Clayton Magnet said:
The P-40 wasn't obsolete by the time the war started, because it wasn't in service until a year AFTER it started.

If you want to consider when the war started for the US.

BobB · Nov 18, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
I believe Blackburn got some pretty decent ships into his unit despite being fleet rejects. He was in VF-2 when they first got the Buffalo and was the unit's maintenance officer so I think he somewhat knew what he was doing. Now - "worn out R-1820s"? In what capacity? How do you know they were "worn out" or do you have proof of this? There were support organizations who overhauled engines (for individual squadrons) as they came due based on manufacturer requirements so I'd like to know where you think these engines were "worn out" or if individual squadrons were flying aircraft with engines beyond TBO? Additionally, what makes you think the any of the F2A-2s operated by VF-2/3 were "worn out" when they only been in service between 18 months and 2 years in peacetime conditions?

I'm going on the description of "worn out" by the pilot who said he rather take an SNJ into combat. I don't think that his name was Blackburn. Since he said he'd rather have an SNJ, it would appear that he was comparing his Buffaloes to SNJ's, wouldn't it?

FLYBOYJ · Nov 18, 2021

BobB said:
I'm going on the description of "worn out" by the pilot who said he rather take an SNJ into combat. I don't think that his name was Blackburn. Since he said he'd rather have an SNJ, it would appear that he was comparing his Buffaloes to SNJ's, wouldn't it?

NO - as stated, FIRST if "this pilot" (who ever he is) was coming out of a training squadron with no high performance aircraft experience, then I don't know what he would base his opinion on as he's still being trained. I think a Buffalo on it's worse day will out perform an SNJ. SECOND - if "this pilot" was an instructor with some fleet time under his belt, I would take the comment a bit more serious, but again, just saying an aircraft is "worn out" with no specifics comes down to a subjective opinion.

I once worked on several aircraft that were freshly overhauled, engine and airframe. The "customer" did not want up to touch cosmetics (exterior paint, internal furnishings). I had one pilot taking delivery of one of our overhauled aircraft and his comment when he saw the aircraft based on cosmetics, without researching what we did to the aircraft, "boy this is one tired bird." He didn't like the fact that the co-pilot's seat was torn...

The aircraft met all performance requirements found in the -1 (flight manual)

SaparotRob · Nov 18, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
NO - as stated, FIRST if "this pilot" (who ever he is) was coming out of a training squadron with no high performance aircraft experience, then I don't know what he would base his opinion on as he's still being trained. I think a Buffalo on it's worse day will out perform an SNJ. SECOND - if "this pilot" was an instructor with some fleet time under his belt, I would take the comment a bit more serious, but again, just saying an aircraft is "worn out" with no specifics comes down to a subjective opinion.

I once worked on several aircraft that were freshly overhauled, engine and airframe. The "customer" did not want up to touch cosmetics (exterior paint, internal furnishings). I had one pilot taking delivery of one of our overhauled aircraft and his comment when he saw the aircraft based on cosmetics, without researching what we did to the aircraft, "boy this is one tired bird." He didn't like the fact that the co-pilot's seat was torn...

The aircraft met all performance requirements found in the -1 (flight manual)

"Little Deuce Coupe, you don't know what I got".

pbehn · Nov 18, 2021

SaparotRob said:
"Little Deuce Coupe, you don't know what I got".

Is that the actual lyric, I never understood what that was about lol, what does it mean?

SaparotRob · Nov 18, 2021

A car that looks like an Ercoupe and performs like an Incom T-65

pbehn · Nov 18, 2021

SaparotRob said:
A car that looks like an Ercoupe and performs like an Incom T-65

Now I have really learned something, I have been singing the wrong words to a great song for most of my life.

tyrodtom · Nov 18, 2021

pbehn said:
Is that the actual lyric, I never understood what that was about lol, what does it mean?

A deuce coupe is a 1932 Ford 2 door coupe, small light car, Ford's first year with a V8.
But by the 60's when this song came out, 32 Fords were very popular with hot rodders, and they loved to put bigger engines in their cars. So if a 32 Ford had the full hood on it, there's no guessing what might be under it.

SaparotRob · Nov 18, 2021

I knew someone would quickly post that. I wanted to keep it aviation related.

pbehn · Nov 18, 2021

SaparotRob said:
I knew someone would quickly post that. I wanted to keep it aviation related.

Hey, I am learning stuff here. I thought it was "My little deece coop" with no idea what it meant, competition clutches and 4 on the floor I understand like purring like a kitten, but "deece coop" give me a break.

GrauGeist · Nov 18, 2021

The Beach Boys were also hot rod enthusiasts and the popular hot rod of the day, was a '32 Ford coupe, lowered, fenderless and usually a flat-head V-8 stuffed in it with a 4-speed manual transmission (four on the floor).
That's what they were singinging about.

NTGray · Nov 18, 2021

Clayton Magnet said:
The P-40 wasn't obsolete by the time the war started, because it wasn't in service until a year AFTER it started.

Pardon me. . . as an American and a Navy brat whose Pearl-Harbor-stationed dad took him to the brand-new U.S.S. Arizona Memorial when he (the brat) was not quite nine years old, "the War" started in December of 1941. I realize that there are some people who quibble about that, and I admit that they are not exactly wrong. . .but. . .

The one most over-rated plane of WWII

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Airman

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Airman

Major

Staff Sergeant

Airman

Major

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Airman 1st Class

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Colonel

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Colonel

Senior Master Sergeant

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Colonel

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Airman 1st Class

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