The real combat history of the Ki-43 (5 Viewers)

[andrewgeorge]

Given there was an engine and two main gears and two cannons and assorted other distorted steel and burnt alloy components laid out about where one would expect them I would say it was definitely an aircraft and I do not know of any other aircraft with such guns which is why I thought it was a Ki-44

Given there was an engine and two main gears and two cannons and assorted other distorted steel and burnt alloy components laid out about where one would expect them I would say it was definitely an aircraft and I do not know of any other aircraft with such guns which is why I thought it was a Ki-44.

Although the Allies reported shooting down Ki-44 over New Guinea, the IJA units which were deployed there weren't equipped with the Ki-44 on account of its longer takeoff run, short range, and the poorer-quality air strips operated by the Japanese. However, it's possible that simply no records exist of such a deployment.

The weapon which you found may not have been a Ho-301 but rather something else entirely.

The Allies reported shooting down Ki-44s lots of places, including places with only navy fighters like Bougainville and Rabaul, so like you said it's better to look at whatever the Japanese records show.

My question is whether any other IJAAF combat aircraft in PNG were equipped with large caliber cannon like the Ho-301. Ki-45 perhaps?

 

[MiTasol]

Only one engine roughly centred on the main gear and inward retracting main gear rules out the Ki-45.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Allies reported shooting down Ki-44s lots of places, including places with only navy fighters like Bougainville and Rabaul, so like you said it's better to look at whatever the Japanese records show.

The IJA had air groups stationed on Rabaul as well as nearby islands.

 

[andrewgeorge]

The IJA had air groups stationed on Rabaul as well as nearby islands.

That's true but my understanding is that Army combat aircraft were only there in force periodically during 1943-44. Army fighter sentais in the south seas would have been operating day to day out of New Guinea or western New Britain for the vast majority of the campaign.

 

[andrewgeorge]

Only one engine roughly centred on the main gear and inward retracting main gear rules out the Ki-45.

Interesting you have any photos?

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

MiTasol this is fascinating. If you have any photos, you could be the first person with evidence that a Ki-44-II flew out of New Guinea. But are you referring to Madang airfield, which the Japanese captured in 1943? We have info on Madang AF:

Gotta love Wikipedia. It mentions that the Japanese expanded the size of the airbase and the length was 240 feet. I don't know the takeoff requirement of a Ki-44-II but 240 sounds very short. That's not even a football stadium's length.

Whoops, I got it wrong, Madang airport was enlarged to 3,250 ft × 240 ft. It might have been able to field Ki-44.

Madang Airport - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There were other recoilless weapons and rockets which may have had similar looking holes. But a lot of information has been lost regarding the Ki-44-II so it could be that you've unveiled some piece of history that might change our understanding of the air war in New Guinea.

 

[GrauGeist]

That's true but my understanding is that Army combat aircraft were only there in force periodically during 1943-44. Army fighter sentais in the south seas would have been operating day to day out of New Guinea or western New Britain for the vast majority of the campaign.

The IJA's 11th Sentai was first into Rabaul in December 1942.

They eventually had a couple airfields on the island and for a time, their air division was headquartered there.

I should.also mention that the KI-61 was first introduced in force in New Guinea, including the 78th Sentai based on Rabaul.

Gotta love Wikipedia. It mentions that the Japanese expanded the size of the airbase and the length was 240 feet.

Is it possible that they meant the runway was expanded by 240 feet eyond the original length?

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

The IJA's 11th Sentai was first into Rabaul in December 1942.

They eventually had a couple airfields on the island and for a time, their air division was headquartered there.

I should.also mention that the KI-61 was first introduced in force in New Guinea, including the 78th Sentai based on Rabaul.


Is it possible that they meant the runway was expanded by 240 feet eyond the original length?

Thanks for catching that! I misread it, its dimensions are 3,250 ft × 240 ft. I'm the one who needs editing, not Wikipedia.

I can't find info on the Ki-44's takeoff run, but it seems to be somewhere around that length. I think it's entirely possible that the Ki-44 could have been flown from a New Guina airbase. EDIT: War thunder has the Ki-44 takeoff run at around 300 meters.

However, I've also read that the Ki-43-II was outfitted experimentally with air-to-air anti-aircraft rockets. And that these rockets were fitted to Ki-45 and Ki-44 aircraft. The distinctive exhaust plate might be on other weapons as well.

 

[MiTasol]

MiTasol this is fascinating. If you have any photos, you could be the first person with evidence that a Ki-44-II flew out of New Guinea. But are you referring to Madang airfield, which the Japanese captured in 1943? We have info on Madang AF:

Gotta love Wikipedia. It mentions that the Japanese expanded the size of the airbase and the length was 240 feet. I don't know the takeoff requirement of a Ki-44-II but 240 sounds very short. That's not even a football stadium's length.

Madang Airport - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There were other recoilless weapons and rockets which may have had similar looking holes. But a lot of information has been lost regarding the Ki-44-II so it could be that you've unveiled some piece of history that might change our understanding of the air war in New Guinea.

No not Madang, Alexishafen. It was a major Japanese Army air base and there were multiple bomber and fighter strips at Alex, I do not remember exactly how many now, and there were multiple Ki-21, Ki-43, Ki-48, Ki-49 and Ki-61 aircraft there in to the late 70's. There was also a prewar single engined Junkers wreck there.

Alexishafen is 15 km by road from Madang and even now the roads can best be described as basic.

 

[MiTasol]

If you do a search for Alexishafen in this history of the US in 1943 you will see it received a lot of attention from the USAAF. Note that this history is for the whole of the Pacific. Alex was also a major Japanese Army shipping centre.

 

[beers]

"Compared to the AN/M2's 12.7×99mm rounds, the 12.7×81mmSR was 20–30% lighter and smaller

Quite true except it leaves out the fact that the 12.7X99 bullets were also about 20% heavier.

Every 60 seconds, a minute passes.

Granted it is a 130gram HE shell and the Hispano has a lower rate of fire. But the Hispano has better Velocity.

But how many rounds did the Hispanos have, per gun? Should be about the same as a late-ish A6M3, that's not great armament and it's far out in the wings.

 

[GrauGeist]

But how many rounds did the Hispanos have, per gun? Should be about the same as a late-ish A6M3, that's not great armament and it's far out in the wings.

The A6M3 was equipped with the Type 99 Mark 2 and had 100 rounds per cannon. The Type 99 was based on the Oerlikon FF, by the way.

Each cannon was located just outboard of the main gear pivot anchor, which is just inboard of the wing's centerline.

 

[Shortround6]

Round = complete unit of ammunition- Case, primer, propellent charge and projectile.
Bullet = Projectile

Japanese type 99-1 cannon fired just about the same projectiles as the Hispano gun or within 2-3 grams.
The cartridge case was shorter and lighter with a smaller propelling charge so...................
The round (complete) for the 20mm Hispano can weight around 257 grams compared to the 200-203 Grams of the short Japanese 20x72mm round despite projectiles being very close.

If we are trying discuss damage done then we need to discuss the weight of the projectiles and speed at impact. Weight of the cartridge case doesn't enter into it.

But how many rounds did the Hispanos have, per gun? Should be about the same as a late-ish A6M3, that's not great armament and it's far out in the wings.

Well, ammo for the Hispano was highly variable. British and French started with 60 round drums. Spitfire VCs got 120 round belts. The late F4U-1Cs had about 231 shells per gun (four guns) and a few F6F-5s had one 20mm and two .50 cal in each wing. These had 225 rounds of 20mm ammo per gun.
P-38s had 150 rounds for the 20mm.

Early/first A6M3s got a 100 round magazine/drum instead of the 60 round drum of the A6M2s. Late A6M3s used a 100 round magazine/drum on the longer barreled Type 99 Mark 2 which used the longer 20x101RB ammo. It was the A6M5a that got the 125 round belt feed. The first 747 A6M5s still had 100 round magazine/drum.

The Ki-43, while flown by skilled pilots for most of the war, was deficient in armament. Two synchronized 12.7mm machine guns (cannon?) with 250rpg (500 rounds total) that had about 66% of the power of the US .50 cal rounds and about 1/6 the power of a 20mm Hispano figuring in kinetic energy and explosive. Next Problem with the Ki-43 is that the synchronized guns fired much slower than free firing guns and the higher rate of fire of the Ho-103 disappeared. It wasn't firing as fast as the free firing .50s and it wasn't firing faster than the 20mm guns in the Spitfires and Hurricanes. *
For the US fighters after the battle for the Philippines only the P-39 was using synchronized guns. Flying Tiger P-40s used them but that was how many months in early 1942?
SBD dive bombers used them.

*British in Europe for the Spitfire's .303 guns had shift to two guns firing 100% AP and two guns firing incendiary. British .303 incendiary held just about 0.5 grams and since the gun fired at about 20rps it was delivering about 9-10 grams per second.
I don't know what the British were using in the .303s in the Burma area from 1943 on but it may have been the same. most or all of 1942 may have seen ammo shortages with less effective mixes of ammo?

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

Round = complete unit of ammunition- Case, primer, propellent charge and projectile.
Bullet = Projectile

Japanese type 99-1 cannon fired just about the same projectiles as the Hispano gun or within 2-3 grams.
The cartridge case was shorter and lighter with a smaller propelling charge so...................
The round (complete) for the 20mm Hispano can weight around 257 grams compared to the 200-203 Grams of the short Japanese 20x72mm round despite projectiles being very close.

If we are trying discuss damage done then we need to discuss the weight of the projectiles and speed at impact. Weight of the cartridge case doesn't enter into it.

Well, ammo for the Hispano was highly variable. British and French started with 60 round drums. Spitfire VCs got 120 round belts. The late F4U-1Cs had about 231 shells per gun (four guns) and a few F6F-5s had one 20mm and two .50 cal in each wing. These had 225 rounds of 20mm ammo per gun.
P-38s had 150 rounds for the 20mm.

Early/first A6M3s got a 100 round magazine/drum instead of the 60 round drum of the A6M2s. Late A6M3s used a 100 round magazine/drum on the longer barreled Type 99 Mark 2 which used the longer 20x101RB ammo. It was the A6M5a that got the 125 round belt feed. The first 747 A6M5s still had 100 round magazine/drum.

The Ki-43, while flown by skilled pilots for most of the war, was deficient in armament. Two synchronized 12.7mm machine guns (cannon?) with 250rpg (500 rounds total) that had about 66% of the power of the US .50 cal rounds and about 1/6 the power of a 20mm Hispano figuring in kinetic energy and explosive. Next Problem with the Ki-43 is that the synchronized guns fired much slower than free firing guns and the higher rate of fire of the Ho-103 disappeared. It wasn't firing as fast as the free firing .50s and it wasn't firing faster than the 20mm guns in the Spitfires and Hurricanes. *
For the US fighters after the battle for the Philippines only the P-39 was using synchronized guns. Flying Tiger P-40s used them but that was how many months in early 1942?
SBD dive bombers used them.

*British in Europe for the Spitfire's .303 guns had shift to two guns firing 100% AP and two guns firing incendiary. British .303 incendiary held just about 0.5 grams and since the gun fired at about 20rps it was delivering about 9-10 grams per second.
I don't know what the British were using in the .303s in the Burma area from 1943 on but it may have been the same. most or all of 1942 may have seen ammo shortages with less effective mixes of ammo?

I doubt anyone here thinks that the Ma-Dan or even Ma-Dan-Minengeschoss rounds made the Ki-43 anything even close to an Allied fighter in terms of armament. But those rounds do help explain why the Ki-43 was able to knock down a fair amount of medium-sized bombers. Pound-for-pound, the Ki-43 seems to have been a good aircraft.

Regarding the Type 99-2, in the later stages of the war, it's reported on J-Wiki that the Navy also started receiving the equivalent of Ma-Dan rounds, which meant that the velocity (slightly increased) and explosive power (dramatically) increased, probably at the expense of range. But there's no other information other than what's available on Japanese wikipedia.

I think we could estimate that the Ma-Dan Type 99 20mm round was similar to the Ma-202 or Ma-203 round (these were designed for the Ho-5 20mm cannon). There's no mention of whether the IJN developed a Ma-206 equivalent (Minengeschoss-Ma-Dan hybrid).

 

[Just Schmidt]

I wasn't aware of the Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-61 and others for many years. The IJAF didn't get much air time in the histories that interested me. As such, my all-time favorite "bad guys" airplane was the Zero. It will always be the best looking one of the bunch to me for few logical reasons.
I love the B-17 but the A6M is my forbidden fruit.

So zero forbidden fruit for you?

 

[taly01]

You are correct 40mm caseless not fuseless.
I found them in the very few remains of a Ki-44 at Alexishafen PNG. It appeared to be a victim of an incendiary bomb - no crater but very little left of the aircraft and what was left was very burnt. Far more burnt than a standard aircraft fire.

This is very interesting, finding a 40mm caseless round in East New Guinea. AFAIK it was only ever used in Ki44-IIa. They also found a Ki27 at Wewak(or Hollandia) airfields so some odd planes could turn up regardless what the official OOB was.
They flew bombers in New Guinea so many fields would handle a Ki44.

 

[beers]

The Ki-43, while flown by skilled pilots for most of the war, was deficient in armament.

Deficient, yes. But a Bf 109 with just one 20mm MG151/20 and two 7.92mm MGs also doesn't look too good in this comparison; neither do any of the Yak series fighters until the much later upgunned models - they would typically have one 20mm ShVAK firing through the propeller hub and one or two 12.7mm Berezins somewhere in the cowling.
All have inherent gun placement and accuracy advantages, as wing guns tended to flex a lot and many of your shots could/would be off-target (gun camera footage from the ETO often shows .50cal tracers going absolutely EVERYWHERE especially when strafing a ground target since they contrast very well there). If one of the guns, for whatever reason, was firing out of sync would also throw the entire plane off-target due to asymmetric gun recoil.

None of these aircraft struggled to shoot down enemy fighters (well, the Yaks might have, but the ShVAK was a notoriously weak cannon), you don't need four 20mm cannons to shoot down fighters. That became useful when you were staring down a bunch of B-17s, 24s, and 29s coming over.

Granted, the Ho-5s should have been swapped in a little earlier, but those were also in short supply and using them to slightly improve a much older fighter like the Ki-43 instead of stuffing them in Ki-61s/84s/100s doesn't look like a very attractive proposition. Its combat record shows it doing far better than you'd expect regardless and new, better ammunition is an easy way to improve their lethality.

 

[beers]

AFAIK it was only ever used in Ki44-IIa

Ki-44-II Ko would have used the same guns as Ki-44-I, 2x 12.7s + 2x 7.7s. Ki-44-II Otsu was the one with the 40mm guns.

 

[GrauGeist]

As Allied fighters became better armored as well as several U.S. types having robust construction, Axis fighters needed better armament.

As an example, Saburo Sakai mentioned that the F4F was difficult to shoot down:

"I had full confidence in my ability to destroy the Grumman and decided to finish off the enemy fighter with only my 7.7 mm machine guns. I turned the 20 mm cannon switch to the 'off' position and closed in. For some strange reason, even after I had poured about five or six hundred rounds of ammunition directly into the Grumman, the airplane did not fall, but kept on flying. I thought this very odd — it had never happened before — and closed the distance between the two airplanes until I could almost reach out and touch the Grumman. To my surprise, the Grumman's rudder and tail were torn to shreds, looking like an old torn piece of rag. With his plane in such condition, no wonder the pilot was unable to continue fighting! A Zero which had taken that many bullets would have been a ball of fire by now"

 

[Steamed_Banana]

In one of the sim developer forums (many years ago), the question was asked: "how can we deliver more realism?"

I suggested that if a combatant was KIA, they would not be able to enter the sim ever again, since RL has no "respawn/reload".

My suggestion was not well recieved...

Some other ones they might not like:

make guns jam randomly (especially if shooting when pulling G)
make engines fail randomly
make other aircraft systems fail randomly
make guns much less accurate
make planes harder to blow up or disable
make it much harder to know if you actually even hit another aircraft
make aircraft fires go out sometimes
make radios function intermittently
make weather randomly affect one's ability to see anything


Personally, I'd like all that stuff.