The strategic bomber: was it a total failure?

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Saying Bomber Command absorbed 7-9% of the British war effort is a clear overestimation of the military industry and economic power of the UK.

Not really.

Britain produced and delivered about 12,500 heavy bombers by the end of 1944, not all went to BC of course, as many went to coastal, served overseas, etc.

That compares to about 45,000 fighters in the same period, which would have cost more than 12,500 heavies.

Britain produced about 14,000 medium bombers (inc Mosquitos), again many did not go to bomber command.

Britain also produced about 45,000 trainers, transports, liason aircraft, coastal aircraft, naval aircraft etc, which again are more expensive than the medium bombers.

In short, BC got considerably less than half of British aircraft production by cost. And Bomber Command had very few American aircraft, unlike the other commands, many of which had large numbers of US aircraft.

And then you have to add on tank production (and a tank typically cost somewhere between a fighter and bomber). Britain produced about 90,000 armoured fighting vehicles (which includes things other than tanks) during the first 5 years of war, along with over 1,500,000 tons of naval shipping, millions of tons of transport ships, etc.

As the first post in this thread said:

"In the UK alone over a million workers were tied up in bomber production / associated support industries."

That's true, but should be seen in the context of a civilian workforce of over 22 million, meaning less than 5% of the total workforce were producing equipment for BC. And Britain committed a larger proportion of it's economy to the war effort than any of the other major war economies, nearly 55%.

In military terms, Britain had over 4 million men in the army, just over 1 million in the RAF, just under 1 million in the RN. The RAF as a whole had less than 20% of British manpower, BC had far less than half RAF manpower (remember the RAF were based all over the world, BC just in the UK)

Sir John Slessor and Prof Richard Overy both give figures of 7 - 9% of British war effort going to Bomber Command, the figures back that up.
 
According to Max Hastings (Bomber Command: The Myths and Reality of the Strategic Bombing Offensive 1939-45):
"It has been estimated that one-third of Britain's industrial capacity was committed to Bomber Command, along with the best of their high technology. Because of the vast resources consumed by Bomber Command, the British had to import vast quantities of war material (such as tanks, trucks, landing craft, etc.} from the United States."

JJ, are you sure this is from Max Hasting's book?

It appears to be a quote from Charles Lutton, in a review of Hasting's book. It's Lutton's quote, not Hasting's.

Lutton can be charitably described as a revisionist, less charitably as a holocaust denier.

The review was written for the Institute of Historical Review, which is one of, if not the largest, "revisionist" sites on the net.

As I pointed out above, in terms of manpower, in terms of civilian workers, BC got less than 10% of the British war effort, and Sir John Slessor and Richard Overy have both given figures of less than 10%.

The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national group seems to be an accurate description of Arthur Harris' bombing campaign: to liquidate as many German civilians as possible, city by city, focusing on those targets which would result in the most civilian deaths, regardless of military value.

I don't recognise that as a description of Harris's strategy at all. Harris was committed to his plan of destroying German industrial towns.

Max Hastings again:
"On 14 February 1942, the Air Ministry issued a directive authorizing unrestricted area bombing. Churchill's repulsive scientific adviser, Lord Cherwell, provided the final rationalization for the campaign, by claiming that the "dehousing" of the German workers and their families would doubtlessly "break the spirit of the people." The Chief of Air Staff, Sir Charles Portal, reminded his Deputy on 15 February, "Ref. the new bombing directive: I suppose it is clear that the aiming-points are to be built-up areas, not, for instance, the dockyards or aircraft factories ... This must be made quite clear if it is not already understood." Sir Arthur Harris, a fanatical proponent of area bombing, was appointed the new head of Bomber Command.
The first target of the new phase was the old North German town of Lübeck. It was not a place of any military or industrial importance to the Germans and so was lightly defended. But Harris had been "searching for an area target that they could find, strike, and utterly destroy." Lübeck was thus chosen because "above all it was an old, closely-packed medieval town that would burn far better than the spacious avenues of any modern metropolis ...
Lübeck, then, did not attract attention because it was important, but became important because it could be burned."

Again, this is not from Max Hastings, it's from Charles Lutton. The "repulsive" bit about Cherwell shows that, it's a favourite epithet for Cherwell from "revisionist" writers.

All you are quoting is not from Hastings, it's from a revisionist who seeks to portray the Germans as the victims and the allies as the monstrous aggressors.

Please, don't quote from such sources, or at least correctly attribute them. Claiming such stuff is from Hastings when it's actually from a man like Sutton damages your credibility.

As to the specific allegation about Lubeck, here is part of the RAF post raid assesment from Lubeck, dealing with damage to commercial and industrial property:

DRAGERWERK
This works, which is reported to be making oxygen apparatus for submarines and aircraft,
and service pattern repirators, has been very seriously damaged.
A large number of sheds and small factory buildings have been gutted by
fire and one or two damaged by H.E.
Part of the main building has been damaged proabably by blast.
There is a direct hit in the roadway running through the centre of the favtory.

/ EWERS MINESNER
EWERS MIESNER HARTGUSSWERK.

Tke greater part of this foundry has been destroyed by fire.
JAGER LUBECKER APPARATE MOTORENBAU

Factory making engines and ancilliary equipment.
One building, possibly offices, has been gutted.

BLUNK GLUTMANN.
This factory is engaged in tho production of tar products
and roof materials.
1 shed type building is gutted.

FR. EWRES CO.
Canning and preserving factory.
The whole factory is gutted.

ERNST HOHMANN
Factory engaged in iron construction work, machinery and
repairs.
The greate part of the factory is destroyed or damaged
by fire.

CARL THIELE SOHNE.
Enamel f'actory.
A number of factory buildings have been destroyed by fire
and blast.

OTHER FACTORIES
The slaughter house, the HANSA brewery, a sawmill, and several unidentified factories
have been damaged or destroyed.

3. PUBLIC UTILITY SERVICES
CENTRAL ELECTRIC STATION.
This has been destroyed by fire.
GASWORKS II.
A square building in the gasworks has been gutted.
TRAM DEPOT.
The tram depot in St. LORENZ SUD has been damaged.

4. COMMUNICATIONS
MAIN RAILWAY STATION
Part of the main railway station, proabably containing the administrative buildings, left
luggage ect. has been gutted, and the footbridge over the railway tracks damaged by fire.
It is likely that debris blocked the line temporarily.
GOODS YARD (ST. LORENZ).
Part of a goods shed is gutted.
/RAILWAY REPAIR SHOPS
RAILWAY REPAIR SHOPS (ST. JURGEN).
Two sheds are burnt out.
OTHER DAMAGE.
South of the slaughterhouse (st. Lorenz, Nord), a direct hit has caused part of the raailway
embankment to collapse over the line.
One or two near misses to railway tracks are noted, but it is unlikely that these will have
caused damage.

5, PORT FACILITIES.

The northern part of the port is not covered.
A large warehouse on the BEHN QUAY has been destroyed by fire over a length of 360
feet.
One warehouse on the KULENKAMP QUAY has been destroyed by fire and thwo thirds
of a second destroyed or damagws.
A number of small sheds and buildings fronting the basins
have been destroyed or damaged by fire.
 
I would like to add quotes from Max Hastings from his book Armageddon : Chapter Firestorms: War in the Sky -

"What were the fruits of this huge effort, which absorbed a substantial part of the war-making powers of the United States, and consumed a proportion of Britain's industrial capacity equal to that devoted to the entire British Army?"

"It would be ludicrous to imply that the German people found the experience of being bombed acceptable, or to deny that Hitler's war production suffered not only from damage to plant, but also from absenteeism and chronic dislocation to the lives of the labour force"

"They embarked instead upon the policy of 'area bombing' - the systematic assault upon the cities of Germany with a mixture of high-explosive and incendiary bombs, designed to break the morale of the enemy's industrial workforce, as well as to destroy him means of production"

"When the Eigth Air Force began to do so, alongside Fifteenth Air Force flying from Italy, the results were remarkable. Petroleum available to Germany fell from 927,000 tons in March 1944 to 715,000 tons in May, and 472,000 tons in June. Luftwaffe supplies of aviation spirit declined from 180,000 tons in April to 50,000 tons in June, 10,000 tons in August. Germany needed 300,000 tons of fuel a month to fight the war, yet by September reserves fell to half that amount." - Refering to bomber offensive against oil targets.

"We should recognize, however, that it is far easier to pass such judgements amid the relative tranquillity of the twenty-first century than it seemed in 1945, when Hitler's nation was still doing its utmost to kill American and British people, together with the millions of Nazi captives, by every means within its power. Some Germans today brand the bombing of their cities a war crime. This seems an incautious choice of words. It is possible to deplore Harris's excesses without accepting that they should be judged in such emotive language. For all it's follies and bloody misjudgements, the strategic air offensive was a military operation designed to hasten the collapse of Germany's ability to make war. It stopped as soon as Hitler's people ceased to fight. Most of Germany's massacres, by contrast, were carried out against defenceless people who possessed not the slightest power to injure Hitler's empire."
 
I think the bottom line is "The strategic bomber: was it a total failure?" Ask the Luftwaffe pilot in April of 1945 who couldn't fly because there was no fuel available........ :rolleyes:
 
the lancaster kicks ass said:
jj said:
the lancaster kicks (civilian) ass:

also, jj, if you do come back, comments like that are un-nessisairy and uncalled for, that is in effect my name and so i find that extremely rude and insulting..........

Good for you Lanc, What's that supposed to mean anyway?
 
I don't know why but JJs comments directed at calling the bomber offensive a war crime and, basically, calling the Western Allied leaders war criminals made me picture him wearing a striped shirt, a beret and sitting in Starbucks at 10am reading poetry.
 
CC said:
You need to read JJ's post to get the whole picture

i did read the whole post, but i still find that insulting, not beacause he's saying i cill civilians, but because it's un-called for and i do find it insulting that he'd do that to make a point he's making anyway.............
 
plan_D said:
I don't know why but JJs comments directed at calling the bomber offensive a war crime and, basically, calling the Western Allied leaders war criminals made me picture him wearing a striped shirt, a beret and sitting in Starbucks at 10am reading poetry.

And wearing A Che Guerra Shirt!

Agreed Guys!

I got relatives who participated in the Pacific bombing campagin, does that make them war criminals?!? I got your your war criminals right here! :bootyshake:
 
JJ, in the thousands of years of the History of Mankind, he has historically fought over ' Land, Race, and Religon'....in pretty much that order too...

Hitler and his cohorts were genocidal maniacs who thought their race was a 'superior' one, and it's ancient religon was good for a revival...They invaded and stole land and peoples whole, plundering, raping, murdering and enslaving all before them....for their personal agrandisement, under the guise of ''what's best for Germany''...Japan and Italy joined them....Worldwide, we now had an Axis of Evil, intent on world domination.

Those countries that fell before them weren't prepared, and until they got to the Channel, they had a pretty unobstructed run....
When fighting that kind of Enemy, those of the British Empire grit their teeth and give back in kind...as do our Allies. This clown Hitler brought it to us, he attacked and bombed us, aiming for our cities, he also had a nuclear development program [ we nipped that in the bud ], and he fired off 30,000-odd V-weapons at us.....we also had obligations to help protect those countries that had became Occupied.....

Wake-up and smell the coffee, bud....No matter what it cost, whether it went as planned or not, the '' Strategic Bombing'' program worked a treat...Here we are, 60 odd years down the track, all is patched-up, the two nukes that finished WWII have been a viable deterrent to any other meglamanics that may want an 'action-replay', as long as we keep the A-bombs in safe hands, and the 'Big-Plus-for-All-of-Us' is all the Technology generated in the War, and since, allows us a much better Way of Life today....

If you're so cut-up about 'Bombing Civilians', perhaps you could put some energy into coming-up with a way of deterring these disaffected wankers who strap explosives to themselves and bomb innocent civilians...Now THAT is immoral and gutless....

For those that fought and flew in the defence of their country, be they Allied or Axis, they fought a good fight, were honourable and brave men that played-by-the-rules, such as they were.....their Greatest Enemy above all, was 'Gravity'...

Gemhorse


Have a think about it, while 'you're sipping your latte at Starbucks'......
 

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How could you call strategic bombing in Europe a failure. At its' hieght over 1.5 million Germans were employed in air defence. It eventually forced Germany to shift from bomber production to fighters, saving lives in Britain and Russia.

The Luftwaffe was forced to bring many of its' best fighter pilots home to defend the Reich, as a result Germany was chronically short of fighters in other theaters. Many of those pilots and thousands of aircraft were destroyed in the air war over Europe, weakening the Luftwaffe to the point where an invasion of Western Europe was possible.

Doesn't sound like a failure to me and 300,000 Allied airmen did not die in vain!
 

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