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That is really a strawman argument: I never said he read off 300 knots on his ASI: What I wrote was : "Did he actually read off an IAS corresponding to 290 or 295 knots and rounded this off to 300?"
And Sakai saying "about 300 knots" still sounds very much of a ballpark number and not something one would tune a simulation model based on. At least not in my book.
bNo torque curves needed: I have an original Japanese chart for the Sakae 12 where I can read off power for different boosts from -350 to +250 mm in the 1700-2550 rpm range, and the Japanese +150 mm 2500 rpm setting generates a little less power than the US test at +35" 2550-2600 rpm, hence the slightly lower speed (330 mph) with that setting in my estimate.
You seem to miss my point: I'm saying that the Japanese changed the pitch range to improve the Zero's range at the cost of performance (trading high speed and high climb rate for long range). So the fact that this seems to be the case with many of the wrecks found actually bolsters my point that the low revs mentioned in US evaluations before they changed the pitch range was due to the Japanese employing this setting on a wider scale to get range, and not due to the engine in the US Wright Field test of the A6M2 being worn out.
I can't comment as to the accuracy of that quote. At one point I believed it to be overly optimistic but as I read more, I am finding that his claim is quite plausible in the context of other evidence.
b
US test reports seem to always quote RPM figures in the 2500 - 2550 RPM range. You are stating that the Japanese chart gives a power reading for +129 mm at 2600 RPM for a Sakae 12 engine? That would be interesting.
If the +150 mm boost setting at 2500 RPM is giving 330 MPH in a bent bird then what do you suppose +250 mm and 2550 RPM would be giving on a non-bent bird?
I believe this is a poor argument for the following reasons:
1. At the "Normal" engine setting of 2350 RPM, A6M2 cruised at 316 MPH.
2. The long range missions to Guadalcanal were flown at very slow airspeeds on lean mixtures.
Assuming the same advance ratio, half the airspeed and half the RPM is awfully low, my guess is that it is too low to be practical.
3. One other point that is worth noting is that Koga's A6M2 had no need to be configured for any super long ranges if such a configuration was even possible. He was flying off a carrier where low speed acceleration off the carrier deck was certainly more important.
We've been through stick forces beforeJust for context: In many flight tests, the specification is a maximum of 60 pounds of force on the stick. A real pilot may be able to apply more but that was how the aeroplane was tested.
Also worth noting is that in one of the reports, there is a comment that at 200 Knots, A6M2 would complete a 360 degree roll in 5.4 seconds. That may not be great performance for the time, but it is still over 60 degrees per second.
I am curious as to how long it would take to do 100 circles. Does anyone have any idea?If he didn't or couldn't keep count of how many turns he made, it's just a guess.
What I find amazing is that the guy behind him would do 75-100 turns behind him before he finally decided it wasn't going to work.
It wouldn't be fatal for the German to reverse his turn, and that's probably how he broke off the combat.
Staying on one opponent so long, in the same airspace, while the Mustang pilot is on the radio trying get all his buddies to come help him, just doesn't seem smart, or likely.
You seem to have your own misunderstanding of basic facts.
Yes I missed a zero. Since 5 minutes at full power is the budget the P51 pilot isn't getting homeIf it takes 20 seconds to complete a circle, then it would take 33 minutes to complete 100.
Somebody check my math.
That's a long time at full power, and in one area.
Depends on what escort mission he was on , but just how much extra time did a Mustang have to go after the Luftwaffe ( as Doolittle told them to do) after escorting the bombers to the target, and was then released to search and destroy.
"Set in concrete" might mean he can't bend it around with one hand relatively easily. But, if you are a bigger, stronger guy and use both hands on the stick, it might be way different.I have always been of the same opinion that you are describing here. There are some people however who take some of the pilot reports literally rather than figuratively. I have heard arguments that when the pilot described the stick as feeling like it was "set in concrete", that is literally what he meant. Concrete, immovable.... When these kinds of comments start getting posted, it is time to find something else to do.
Yes. The chart goes up to 2550 and and this line drawn above the 2500 line in the chart is quite close, meaning that the engine was close to peak rpm's and would not be producing much more power at 2600.
Then about what the +250 mm and 2550 RPM would add: I already explained that with the Spitfire MkI chart I linked to in post #334: The extra 50 rpm's from 2500 move the FTH speed a little towards higher speeds, but this is only marginal adding just a few mph at the FTH. The main gain is at lower latitudes, not at the FTH. Just as the effects on the Spitfire MkI when going from 6.25 to 12 and ultimately +16 boost.
And I don't understand why you are so fixated with "bent birds"? Unless a rebuilt aircraft is put together in a very bad way the effects on performance would be minimal. But since you seem to think there are many mph to be had here, just what was "bent" and how many mph would "un-bending" these defects do? 1,2, 3 or 5 or 10 mph? Because if this was missed by the BuAer engineers in charge of the testing, they were not very good at their jobs were they?
We have been so fixated with speeds so far in this thread, that we have forgotten to consider that the climb rates in the US tests tell a story as well: And if you look at the climb rates in those tests you can see that the engines were delivering according to specs since they measured a bit over 2700 fpm SL climb rate for the A6M2's in both those tests, which is just as expected looking at the power loading W/P. So this proves without a shadow of a doubt that there was nothing wrong with the engines and that that reason for the low revs they measured when testing initially was due to the propeller pitch setting being adjusted for range, and not performance.
We have been through just about ALL of these arguments before. I know because I was involved in a couple and posted an awful lot of data about 5 years ago.We've been through stick forces before
The P-38J and L in the European theater.
Control forces were studied in NACA Report No 755 Requirements For Satisfactory Flying Qualities of Airplanes. See attached file. The target for maximum aileron control force at below 80% of maximum speed was: a. Wheel-type controls: +/- 80 pounds applied at the rim of the wheel. b. Stick-type...ww2aircraft.net
I don't believe any WWII fighter will complete more than ONE circle in about 20 seconds. There is just not enough power. After the first one, slowing down all the way, it will start to slow down from best cornering speed and will wind up in the 25 - 35 second range unless the pilot also loses height to maintain energy. If he does that, the ground is the limiting factor. After he reaches ground level, he will be going around slower than best-cornering speed, which is usually called "maneuvering speed" on the flight envelope diagram, and it is located where full aft control stick/wheel movement aft will just produced the g-limit.I am curious as to how long it would take to do 100 circles. Does anyone have any idea?
I believe it would take about 20 seconds to complete a circle. If so that's over 3 minutes at full power. Fuel becomes an issue. Also 3 minutes at high Gs must be very tiring.
"Set in concrete" might mean he can't bend it around with one hand relatively easily. But, if you are a bigger, stronger guy and use both hands on the stick, it might be way different.
A C-47 needs a lot of rudder to turn quickly. By quickly, I mean as opposed to turning with insufficient rudder. In that regard, it is kind of like flying a sailplane.or even move it with one hand easily. There are so many variables - the pilots size, upper body strength, how tired he is, what he mentally considers stiff (in comparison with what he last flew, how well fed he is, etc, etc, etc.
For example for a Piper J-3 or PA-11 pilot the T-6 and P-40 is heavy on the controls and the C-47 aileron response is slower than grass growing or paint drying.
1 tall tale ...While this conversation has been going in circles, just how much altitude have we lost so far?
A C-47 needs a lot of rudder to turn quickly. By quickly, I mean as opposed to turning with insufficient rudder. In that regard, it is kind of like flying a sailplane.
I Ivan1GFP : I read your last reply to me and I think we just have to agree to disagree: Right now I can't really see that anything more has been brought to the table in terms of actual numbers or solid data, and we are just going around in circles exchanging opinions now.
Over the years, I have found that the most reliable data is usually that which has been compiled by the nations who operated the aircraft themselves in combat. For example, for German aircraft I have found that the so-called Kennblatt data is usually quite accurate. Unfortunately, I have seen no similar data for Japanese aircraft which is a shame, since I believe this would have given us a much better picture. But nothing tangible like that has unfortunately surfaced in this thread. Granted, evaluations by the opposition don't always reveal an aircraft's true potential, but we have now been debating this back and forth for a long time, and I have yet to see anything solid which would sway me away from the opinion that the 335 mph top speed figure for the A6M2 is optimistic.
So this is why I think it's time to call it a day for me. But I do appreciate your input and the civil discussion, so thanks for that.
To be honest, I find that circle-jerk to be BS.1 tall tale ...
"Set in concrete" might mean he can't bend it around with one hand relatively easily. But, if you are a bigger, stronger guy and use both hands on the stick, it might be way different.