Admiral Beez
Major
Would a A6M with a B5N-like folding wing have been worse off due to the weight vs. the benefit of larger CAGs?
The Zero's Maneuverability (1 Viewer)
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Holtzauge
Airman 1st Class
As a structural engineer, I would want to place the fold as far out as possible, given that the weight of the fold and lock fittings will increase dramatically the further inboard you do the fold. I don't know why, but I would guess the folds on the Zero's wings was done solely to make it fit on the carrier's elevator system.
But I guess the crew chiefs and carrier operations officers could be inclined to argue for a fold further in to fit more of them on the carrier. But I would think that that would have been part of the requirement spec from the beginning in that case. But given where they put the fold it probably wasn't. But if the customer wants the fold at the wing root, well then that would be where I would put it. Because the customer is always right isn't he?
But I guess the crew chiefs and carrier operations officers could be inclined to argue for a fold further in to fit more of them on the carrier. But I would think that that would have been part of the requirement spec from the beginning in that case. But given where they put the fold it probably wasn't. But if the customer wants the fold at the wing root, well then that would be where I would put it. Because the customer is always right isn't he?
Greg Boeser
1st Lieutenant
As long as he didn't also demand a wide track undercarriage.As a structural engineer, I would want to place the fold as far out as possible, given that the weight of the fold and lock fittings will increase dramatically the further inboard you do the fold. I don't know why, but I would guess the folds on the Zero's wings was done solely to make it fit on the carrier's elevator system.
But I guess the crew chiefs and carrier operations officers could be inclined to argue for a fold further in to fit more of them on the carrier. But I would think that that would have been part of the requirement spec from the beginning in that case. But given where they put the fold it probably wasn't. But if the customer wants the fold at the wing root, well then that would be where I would put it. Because the customer is always right isn't he?
Holtzauge
Airman 1st Class
Wide undercarriages are only for wimps. A real man lands with Bf 109 type landing gears!
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
Only if somebody else is buying the aircraftWide undercarriages are only for wimps. A real man lands with Bf 109 type landing gears!
Greg Boeser
1st Lieutenant
My cousin owns the propeller factory.
Holtzauge
Airman 1st Class
Well practice makes perfect. And if Hermann Göring is footing the bill for any crooked gears and bent propellers then the more the merrier I would say!
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Believe it or not, the early Spitfire main gear track was 5 ft. 8 in., which was narrower than the Bf109's track of 6 ft. 5 in. which happened to be identical to the F4F's track at 6 ft. 5 in.Wide undercarriages are only for wimps. A real man lands with Bf 109 type landing gears!
Holtzauge
Airman 1st Class
Didn't know that. But now that you mention it, it looks pretty narrow on the Spitfire as well. Wonder why we hear about so many problems on the BF 109 but not the Spitfire?.......
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Do they have a line of hats? Asking for a friend.
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
Could it be the condition of the airfields? Most of the -109 incidents I've seen on film seem to have occurred on French grass fields. How was their drainage compared to the British equivalents?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Bf109, unlike other types with narrow tracks, had a unique geometry to the main gear design that had the wheels at an offset angle to allow them to retract flush into the wings.
The core of that design, was to simplify production as well as allowing the Bf109's wings to be removed for transport/servicing and the main gear's structure was also part of the engine mount.
The ground handling issues stem from the gear geometry and extreme camber of the tire's contact with the ground.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Here's a photo that provides an idea of the gear's geometry:
Also an illustration:
Also an illustration:
Holtzauge
Airman 1st Class
That and pilot quality was probably an issue later in the war: The difference in stick time between Allied and German pilots towards the end of the war was huge. Also, I think from late 1944 on the Germans flew from some pretty rough grass fields as well: Have seen fighters taking off with mud splattering all over the place. Price of losing air superiority I guess.
Yup, there sure is a lot of camber on the Bf 109. And as you say, hooking up the landing gear to the fuselage certainly simplifies servicing. It also makes for a lighter airplane which was an obsession with Willy M. Still, the Spitfire's gear also looks pretty skimpy but it still seems to have done so much better. Maybe a lot of small things in combination made the difference.
Admiral Beez
Major
I don't expect the they were consulted when the A6M was specified. When you look at the hangar layouts of the IJN carriers, especially the conversions you can definitely see the benefit of a narrow folded footprint.
Or a F4F Wildcat.Wide undercarriages are only for wimps. A real man lands with Bf 109 type landing gears!
A very real man does it like that!Wide undercarriages are only for wimps. A real man lands with Bf 109 type landing gears!
Holtzauge
Airman 1st Class
Landing on a skid huh? Well, I like your thinking!
I've done hundreds of landings in one of these:
I've done hundreds of landings in one of these:
Thumpalumpacus
Lieutenant Colonel
I'll see your skidding all over Hell's half-acre and raise you a decent chance of exploding:
View: https://youtu.be/XreX22Ab7-c?t=12
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Spitfire and F4F's main wheels had 0° camber, which meant that either grass or hard surfaces saw the aircraft handle reasonably well, even with a low time pilot.
The 109's gear, having an exaggerated camber, meant that the wheels would be fighting each other, even in the hands of an Experten. This was especially true on hard surfaces, grass fields tended to dampen the effect to a certain degree.
Seems to be a FM-2.
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