This is the way it should have been from the beginning....

[Shortround6]

Invade Sicily 6 months or a year earlier.

Really???
Invade Sicily 4 months before Invading Tunisia???

Just what are you using for these fleets of fighter bombers in the summer of 1942?

I like alternate history as much as most people but I am out of this one.

 

[wuzak]

Palermo was captured in July 1943. How long does it take to set up / clean up an airfield during an invasion on that scale? Gerbini was flying A-20's from August 1943.

S

So why wasn't the B-24 raid launced from Italy, which would have enabled larger bomb loads.

 

[Schweik]

" It says a Mosquito Mk IX had a range of 4,540 km!! That is more than enough."

If you are going to stage a bombing raid it helps if the planes actually carry bombs.

Range 1870 miles with a 500lb bomb under each wing and 121 IMP gallons in the bomb bay and flying at 245mph at 15,000ft which hardly makes you immune to interception.

I think you just proved my point.

Bases become available to the USAAF / RAF in Sicily, and are actually operational with A-20s in August 1943. The big Ploesti raid was, by coincidence, in August, 1943

1870 miles is plenty of range for the job then. Palermo to Ploesti (direct) is 800 miles as the Mosquito flies according to Google.

So fly out to the target at night, (escorted by Mosquito night fighters without bombs) swoop down and drop the bombs, head for home flat out. No problem!

S

 

[Shortround6]

So why wasn't the B-24 raid launced from Italy, which would have enabled larger bomb loads.

Maybe because the Polesti raid was staged about 1 month before the Allies invaded Italy?
The Polesti raid was almost exactly between the invasion of Sicily and the landings at Salerno.

 

[Schweik]

Really???
Invade Sicily 4 months before Invading Tunisia???

Just what are you using for these fleets of fighter bombers in the summer of 1942?

I like alternate history as much as most people but I am out of this one.

Yes, those two notions go together - it's an "alternative history" scenario - IF you de-emphasize the 4 engined bombers, the premise i was suggesting is that you would have a lot more and better fighters, fighter bombers and fast / light bombers like the Mossie.

If that happened, maybe you could win the war in North Africa and capture Tunisia etc. much sooner.

However none of this is necessary to do the Mosquito raid on Ploesti in 1943, as I outlined above. They absolutely could have done it with minimal alternative history forces required - just send a bunch of mosquitoes to Sicily. They have a long ferry range you could do it in a few days.

 

[Schweik]

Maybe because the Polesti raid was staged about 1 month before the Allies invaded Italy?
The Polesti raid was almost exactly between the invasion of Sicily and the landings at Salerno.

The conquest of Sicily was complete by 17 August 1943. i already pointed out (and linked to the wikipedia entry for) one Sicilian airfield which was operating A-20's in that same month.

So it was definitely possible.

One issue they may have had though with B-24's is that B-24's require a bigger airfield than a two engined bomber like an A-20 or a Mosquito.

 

[Schweik]

Look it's all just a lark, and a big "what if" - this thing about the 4 engine bombers vs. the Mosquitos is something I've thought about for years, but there is no changing the past. As the other stuff with the Merlins going into US or Soviet fighters, it's a neat idea but also a lark. They didn't do it so there is no point in taking the discussion too seriously. It's just for fun.

Apologies if I ruffled any feathers.

 

[wuzak]

The conquest of Sicily was complete by 17 August 1943. i already pointed out (and linked to the wikipedia entry for) one Sicilian airfield which was operating A-20's in that same month.

So it was definitely possible.

One issue they may have had though with B-24's is that B-24's require a bigger airfield than a two engined bomber like an A-20 or a Mosquito.

The Ploesti raid was done on 1 August, 1943. So the base would not have been available in time.

There must have been some reason for doing the raid on that day, rather than wait.

 

[wuzak]

Look it's all just a lark, and a big "what if" - this thing about the 4 engine bombers vs. the Mosquitos is something I've thought about for years, but there is no changing the past. As the other stuff with the Merlins going into US or Soviet fighters, it's a neat idea but also a lark. They didn't do it so there is no point in taking the discussion too seriously. It's just for fun.

Apologies if I ruffled any feathers.

Mosquitoes in the strategic bomber role has been debated here for years.

I have been a proponent of doing daylight bombing with Mosquitoes instead of B-17s. But there are some practical limitations.

 

[Schweik]

The Ploesti raid was done on 1 August, 1943. So the base would not have been available in time.

There must have been some reason for doing the raid on that day, rather than wait.

you got me, it may have been 3 weeks late. I don't think it changes the overall point though, do you?

 

[Schweik]

Mosquitoes in the strategic bomber role has been debated here for years.

I have been a proponent of doing daylight bombing with Mosquitoes instead of B-17s. But there are some practical limitations.

Fair enough - as you probably noticed it's a subject I'm interested in as well. And I learned something about it in the little discussion we all just had.

 

[Milosh]

and an astounding 55,573 KiA from RAF Bomber Command

That number is the total for operation and non operational losses and includes POWs.. Operational losses (KIA, MIA), still high, was just over 47,000.

 

[Shortround6]

Mosquitoes in the strategic bomber role has been debated here for years.

I have been a proponent of doing daylight bombing with Mosquitoes instead of B-17s. But there are some practical limitations.

One of the limitations in this case is the replacement of all the B-24s made in 1942 and the first half of 1943 with a version of the Mosquito made in small numbers in the spring/early summer of 1943.
The substitution of a long circuitous route in order to avoid/deceive defenses in favor of a direct charge (shades of Balaclava) at the target.
The replacement of planes carrying 4000lb of bombs with planes carrying 1000lbs each and the assumption that Mosquitos bombing from low level will be that much more accurate than B-24s bombing from as low as 200ft, the first Polesti raid NOT being done at high or even medium altitude.

What ifs can be a lot of fun but when it starts to get into they should have replaced all those worthless planes built in 1942-43 with wonder plane XX that wasn't built untill 1944!! it gets very hard to make reasoned arguments.

 

[tomo pauk]

I don't think there is much that could be done for the BoB, but I think for the 'second turning point' of late 1942 through Spring 1943, it would have been helpful for the Germans to have had some longer ranged fighters. Fiat G.55 was deployed to combat units in March 1943, first flight was in April 1942. It was obviously very promising already by then. You could have a parallel German / Italian development from that point on. Or developed the Re 2000 series from 1940 or the MC 202 from 1941. I think the Re 2000 series was maybe the most promising of all them but also probably the most difficult to perfect. The Re 2001 was around in 1941 flying with a DB 601, with 1,100 km range (without drop tanks) and was already clearly a very promising design. They could have started with that.

The G.55 was probably the sexiest fighter ever designed when looking the side elevation, however it does not offer anything over what Fw 190 did 15 or 20 months earlier. Have surplus of DB 605 engines? Install them on the Fw 190s.
Re.2001 (and Ki-61) shows that DB 601, good performance long range were possible in a single aircraft, but it was late to 1940, while German priorities of 1943 were not dictating long-range fighters.

Kill them both, waste of effort. 219 was a much better design. Or develop the Ta 154 if you prefer.
Jet transport in WW2 seems a bit out of reach but I'm willing to listen

There was still plenty of steam in the piston-engined transports, LW harvested little of that steam.
The He 219 with BMW 801 would've probably been a good fighter.

It wasn't in the Pacific so I don't know why you would think so. The main thing though is that especially with the ability to operate from forward / remote airfields, that plane could engage well beyond the operational radius of any allied land based fighters available in 1942, except maybe P-38's. And it was maneuverable enough (even with the floats) to still have a pretty good chance against it.

Call me sceptic when it is about floatplane fighters in and around Europe

Disagree. They were highly vulnerable (shot down a lot whenever fighters were around) very inaccurate like all level bombers, and way too slow. It's a Spanish Civil War era relic way past it's prime by 1942. The niche the Ju 87 had was that in spite of it's sluggishness, because it was a dive bomber at least it was extremely accurate and useful on a tactical level. What the Germans needed was another, faster dive bomber. The Aichi I suggested was a perfect fit - it even had gull wings.

Every unescorted bomber was highly vulnerable, while percentage of killed He 11s vs. bombs dropped was no worse than of the Ju 88, Do 17 or Wellingtons in 1940. Every bomber was slow in these days, even the Ju 88 was much slower than non-so-fast Hurrucanes.
Germany needed faster bombers, that I will agree, however the B7A does not cut the mustard with 1100 lbs in a bomb bay, while any external bomb load cuts the speed.

Sea Hurricanes as far as I know did not really have the range to be useful naval aircraft, except for CAP (i,.e. no escort missions). This would make for a debate I'm sure but I think the Martlets were much more effective fighters than Hurricanes - (which is why the FAA went with them instead of relying on Sea Hurricanes)

Sea Hurricanes carried two drop tanks, were rangier than early Martlets that carried no drop tanks, and were of same range as later Martlets with drop tanks. Once Martlets' versions with folding wing became available, they were a better fit since more could be carried, plus they were basically free.

Or rockets...

Rockets will not do against tanks.

Mosquitoes didn't need escort fighters. Which is the point.

Bombing campaign was done with aircraft coming out from production lines. There was no option 'let's wait until there is enough of Mosquitoes so we can bomb Germany'. Escort fighter can kill enemy fighters & their pilots, bomber Mosquitoes cannot.

 

[Shortround6]

I have said this before. Dive bombers against land targets only made sense when the defending AA was patchy and/or low quality.

Against sea targets the Profit to loss ratio changes quite a bit. Even a destroyer required many, many times the investment in materials, man hours of labor and crew than the attacking bombers. A single dive bomber may be more expensive than a single tank, let alone trucks. As land based light AA multiplied and grew larger (Bren guns replaced by 20mm or Bofors guns for example, or single/twinMg 34s replaced by quad 20mm) ) dive bombing lost a LOT of it's attractiveness.

 

[Schweik]

One of the limitations in this case is the replacement of all the B-24s made in 1942 and the first half of 1943 with a version of the Mosquito made in small numbers in the spring/early summer of 1943.

Come on man, I don't think you are on the level here.

The Mosquito was flying bombing missions in early 1942. If they had moved some of the funding / energy / momentum from the 4 engined heavy bombers i'm sure they could have developed the Mosquito as a bomber a little faster. But you don't need to in order to pull off the Mosquito Ploesti raid.

The substitution of a long circuitous route in order to avoid/deceive defenses in favor of a direct charge (shades of Balaclava) at the target.

What I was suggesting was just having the Mossies fly at night, escorted by Mosquito night fighters, arrive at dawn to drop their bombs and then fly out Nap of the Earth or by whatever circuitous route they want.

The replacement of planes carrying 4000lb of bombs with planes carrying 1000lbs each and the assumption that Mosquitos bombing from low level will be that much more accurate than B-24s bombing from as low as 200ft, the first Polesti raid NOT being done at high or even medium altitude.

B-24's don't bomb accurately from any level, and more importantly, they got slaughtered on that mission whereas the Mosquitoes probably wouldn't have. If you have more planes carrying a slightly smaller bomb load but bombing more accurately it will do the trick. I've worked in refineries they are quite delicate and it doesn't take that much to wreck one.

What ifs can be a lot of fun but when it starts to get into they should have replaced all those worthless planes built in 1942-43 with wonder plane XX that wasn't built untill 1944!! it gets very hard to make reasoned arguments.

There is a big difference between not liking an argument and actually proving there is something fallacious in it.

S

 

[soaringtractor]

1. Take supercharger off the Merlin XX in the fall of 1940
2. Send to Allison.
3. In modern terms "copy and paste"

solves an awful lot of problems in 1942, early 1943.

People....The Merlin XX (20) V1650-1 Was a SINGLE stage supercharger with a 2nd SPEED !!! It was NOT the LATER 60 series 2 stage 2 speed supercharged engine of 1942/production 1943 !!!! RR used THREE different superchargers on the merlin, the single stage up to but NOT the XX and then they added a 2nd SPEED, XX (20) series through the 50 series, most merlin were this and THEN the added a 2nd stage with the 2 speed to get the high altitude 60 series Merlin !!! ALL Merlins were NOT created equal !!!!

 

[wuzak]

What I was suggesting was just having the Mossies fly at night, escorted by Mosquito night fighters, arrive at dawn to drop their bombs and then fly out Nap of the Earth or by whatever circuitous route they want.

That's part of the problem: want more fighters, have fewer bombers.

B-24's don't bomb accurately from any level, and more importantly, they got slaughtered on that mission whereas the Mosquitoes probably wouldn't have. If you have more planes carrying a slightly smaller bomb load but bombing more accurately it will do the trick. I've worked in refineries they are quite delicate and it doesn't take that much to wreck one.

The Mosquito range is too short for the mission. Unless, as I said earlier, you launch from a carrier. Even then I am not sure they could get back to base (not being equipped to land on a carrier either).

 

[soaringtractor]

The Basic power section of the V-1710 was improved to the point where it was good for 1600-1750hp for periods of time (or higher with water injection), It was the lack of good supercharging that held it back.
granted there several steps along the way from the 1090hp engines of the long nose P-40s to the 1600hp and up engines (new engine blocks, new crankshafts) but Allison did a pretty good job with the basic engine and it probably could have equaled the Merlin XX series if given a comparable supercharger.

The Merlin XX (20) was NOT the great 2 stage 2 speed merlin!!! That was the 60 series 1942/ production 1943 !!! The Merlin XX (20) and the V1650-1 Has a SINGLE stage supercharger with a 2nd speed added !!! This was NOT the 60 series 2 stage 2 speed High Altitude Merlin everyone gets goofy about !!! The facts !!!

 

[wuzak]

People....The Merlin XX (20) V1650-1 Was a SINGLE stage supercharger with a 2nd SPEED !!! It was NOT the LATER 60 series 2 stage 2 speed supercharged engine of 1942/production 1943 !!!! RR used THREE different superchargers on the merlin, the single stage up to but NOT the XX and then they added a 2nd SPEED, XX (20) series through the 50 series, most merlin were this and THEN the added a 2nd stage with the 2 speed to get the high altitude 60 series Merlin !!! ALL Merlins were NOT created equal !!!!

This is not new knowledge. It is well known here.

Shortround's suggestion is because the Merlin XX supercharger was superior to the one fitted to the V-1710. This enabled the FTH to be several thousand feet higher than for the V-1710.