This is the way it should have been from the beginning....

[wuzak]

Today the go-to bomb for most missions is a 1,000 or 2,000 lbs bomb. The accuracy (today laser guided or GPS guided) makes the difference. An 8,000 lb bomb has very limited real world need, outside of propaganda. Much like huge 4 engine bombers full of 500 lb bombs which explode miles away from their target.

A 1,000 lb bomb is plenty to destroy oil refineries and most factories or airfields. Let alone tanks or AT guns which is the main purpose of a Dive Bomber in land combat ala Stuka.

Most 4 engined heavy bomber raids were dropping 250 or 500 lb bombs anyway most of the time. And missing.

The USAAF essentially carpet bombed oil facilities in Germany with small bombs (250-500lb GP) in 1944. They caused damage, but that could be repaired. So the bombers had to repeat the raid over and over. It became a race between the repairers and the bombers.

The RAF used larger bombs - 1000lb and up. They did more damage to oil facilities with these bombs, particularly the 4000lb HC bomb, and had to return to the facilities on fewer occasions.

 

[wuzak]

A two stage sueprcharged merlin could have allowed them to dump the turbo on the P-38 and allowed the P-38 to play at high altitude, where they faced limited competition that didn't fly that well up high. Then they could focus on the other (I agree, myriad) problems. But the P-38 was supposed to be a high altitude fighter from the get-go so it's major problems playing up above the clouds was a huge setback for it's value as a fighter.

Several Merlin P-38s were proposed - ones with Merlin XX (V-1650-1), Merlin 60 series (V-1650-3) and Merlin 100 series.

None even went to the prototype stage - perhaps because of lobbying efforts by GM, who owned Allison.

 

[Schweik]

coffee plants and sugar cane don't grow 3 plants per 100 acres. how many square miles of tropical forest do you have to deal with to get the needed trees?
If some bright spark around 1910 had decided that Balsa wood would be the coming thing in 30 years and planted hundreds of acres with neat rows of Balsa trees so they could be harvested and shipped in large quantities with little trouble then yeah, America could have built thousands of Mosquitos.

America made a lot of mistakes and blunders in WW2, but two things they were very good at was production and logistics. They were already importing vast quantities of lumber and other stuff from down South (I think some strategic materials too from the Andes but can't remember what, maybe copper?) I just don't buy your argument that they would have undue trouble with that.

If you want to replace the B-17 and the B-24 the decision has to be made in 1941. it doesn't matter if the accomplished anything or not in 1941 or even much in 1942.

I don't agree with that, yes they would need some lead time and yes it took a while to realize the futility of heavy bomber raids, probably not until 1943. But if they had stopped then and shifted over to fast, precision bombers instead, they would have saved a lot of lives IMO.

As for fighters with turbos. They almost have to be designed in from the start adding them later is NOT like adding them to car today.
adding them later gets you things like this
View attachment 488666
and this is for a plane that already had a two stage supercharger and intercoolers.

hahah that's hilarious you definitely get points for that one.

S

 

[Schweik]

Several Merlin P-38s were proposed - ones with Merlin XX (V-1650-1), Merlin 60 series (V-1650-3) and Merlin 100 series.

None even went to the prototype stage - perhaps because of lobbying efforts by GM, who owned Allison.

I think this was the main problem that the US faced in WW2. Corruption, to be blunt about it.

 

[pbehn]

LOL S/R the Mosquito only started trials in 1941, lets see all that effort stopped because someone has seen a wooden plane in UK

 

[wuzak]

Why would you give the Allison to RR to "develop???

More people.
More money.
More aggressive developers.

You do know don't you the 2 stage superchrger was invented in the USA with patents being issued in 1938???? RR did not invent the 2 stage supercharger!! The grumman F4F Wildcat with a PW R1830 was THE first plane to fly with a 2 stage supercharger !!!! Also PW added that 2 stage 2 speed supercharger to the R2800 as used on the F4U -4 Corsair and the F6F Hellcat. The P47 added a turbocharger to the R2800 for high altitude performance !!! The better question would have been why was not this info available to Allison ???? Jesse Vincent of Packard had access to the 2 stage superchargers early on, he had an air version A2500 he was working on of the PT Boat engine M2500 that used a 2 stage supercharger. That engine got shelved when Packard agreed to build the Merlin FOR THE BRITS !!!! USA had the technology but the USAAF was hung up on turbos that could not be fitted to most fighters, BUT the Navy saw the need !!!

The 2 stage engine in the F4F was not particularly high altitude. Nor the ones in the F6F or F4U-1.

 

[Schweik]

The USAAF essentially carpet bombed oil facilities in Germany with small bombs (250-500lb GP) in 1944. They caused damage, but that could be repaired. So the bombers had to repeat the raid over and over. It became a race between the repairers and the bombers.

The RAF used larger bombs - 1000lb and up. They did more damage to oil facilities with these bombs, particularly the 4000lb HC bomb, and had to return to the facilities on fewer occasions.

I've worked in refineries. They are delicate and catch fire really easily. They blow up really easily, sometimes on their own. We had one near where I live which was damaged by a Cat Cracker explosion about 20 years ago, and it took months to get it working again, this without the pressure of having a war on and dealing with further raids.

I don't know that much about the RAF raids on oil facilities but I do know about the Ploesti raid and others done with B-24's, and they suffered massive casualties. That and their relatively poor bombing accuracy (no fault of the brave crews) meant that they couldn't keep going back and really finish the job. I think with Mosquitoes you could.

S

 

[Schweik]

LOL S/R the Mosquito only started trials in 1941, lets see all that effort stopped because someone has seen a wooden plane in UK

Obviously not. But once the Mosquito started to prove itself - say late summer of 1942? January 1943 when they did their first Berlin daylight raid? yes that is a little late in the game but American industry was capable of making a lot of sudden shifts. The P-51 came more or less out of the blue at that point too didn't it? They put the Merlin 61 into it in Oct 1942, the P-51B went into production in June 1943. That is late in the game but it still did change the game.

Thank god some smart people on both sides of the Atlantic realized the P-51 was something they needed a lot more of and fast. That changed the course of the war. As much as I like the P-40 I recognize that production momentum shift to P-51 was a very good idea (yes I know they still produced P-40's but the emphasis quickly shifted to the Mustang, thank god).

If you had a really bright person to whom it occurred to think of it by say January 1943, (say Marshall and Churchil saw eye to eye on this during a 7 martini lunch) maybe they could have seen the light. Naturally it's unlikely - it's a "what if" but if you could have started shifting priorities then instead of doubling down on bad decisions and rationalizing "mass de-housing" as a strategy.

It's a game of "what if" we are engaging in here not "what happened"

S

 

[pbehn]

Obviously not. But once the Mosquito started to prove itself - say late summer of 1942? If you had a really bright person in charge, maybe they could have seen the light. Naturally it's unlikely - it's a "what if" but if you could have started shifting priorities then instead of doubling down on bad decisions and rationalizing "mass de-housing" as a strategy.

It's a game of "what if" we are engaging in here not "what happened"

S

I am a big fan of the mosquito myself, but you need everyone in all military organisations to have a complete change of mind sometime in the thirties, the British were more obsessed with putting turrets in everything than taking all defensive armament out. The mass de housing as a strategy worked, it was a massive drag on German industry and output.

 

[wuzak]

I've worked in refineries. They are delicate and catch fire really easily. They blow up really easily, sometimes on their own. We had one near where I live which was damaged by a Cat Cracker explosion about 20 years ago, and it took months to get it working again, this without the pressure of having a war on and dealing with further raids.

Small bombs had smaller radius of effect, so they needed to land closer to the things that they could damage. Which is why the USAAF used lots of small bombs - some had to get close to something.

The small bombs could not destroy larger equipment or tanks. The big bombs could.

 

[Schweik]

I am a big fan of the mosquito myself, but you need everyone in all military organisations to have a complete change of mind sometime in the thirties, the British were more obsessed with putting turrets in everything than taking all defensive armament out. The mass de housing as a strategy worked, it was a massive drag on German industry and output.

No, I don't think you needed to have a complete change of mind in the 30's. Military theories in the 30's were mostly wrong. The obsession on turrets by the RAF, which was going to turret-fighters, is a good example. They did make some idiotic turret fighters by the beginning of the war, but it didn't take them long to realize that was a dreadful mistake.

Same for a whole host of RAF bomber types which wound down pretty quickly.

Similarly the P-51 as I mentioned. It was only a few months after realizing the Merlin 61 (and additional fuel) made the P-51 a world class fighter that they had started full scale production of the new type. Another is the Corsair, it was on the verge of being scrapped when the Marines proved it's value and the Fleet Air Arm proved it could be landed on Carriers, and that turned the program around. Instead of making that many more Wildcats, they shifted a lot of resources over to the Corsair, including building it in multiple new factories.

I think they could have done something similar with the bombers. Unfortunately guys like Le May and Harris had a lot of influence and made their case in spite of the facts. It cost us a lot, and the Continental Europeans even more. Russians too probably.

S

 

[pbehn]

I've worked in refineries. They are delicate and catch fire really easily. They blow up really easily, sometimes on their own. We had one near where I live which was damaged by a Cat Cracker explosion about 20 years ago, and it took months to get it working again, this without the pressure of having a war on and dealing with further raids.

I don't know that much about the RAF raids on oil facilities but I do know about the Ploesti raid and others done with B-24's, and they suffered massive casualties. That and their relatively poor bombing accuracy (no fault of the brave crews) meant that they couldn't keep going back and really finish the job. I think with Mosquitoes you could.

S

I have worked on refineries too all over UK and Saudi Arabia plus one in Abu Dhabi. Unless you destroy the vessels and heavy equipment the rest can be lashed up quickly.

 

[pbehn]

No, I don't think you needed to have a complete change of mind in the 30's. Military theories in the 30's were mostly wrong. The obsession on turrets by the RAF, which was going to turret-fighters, is a good example. They did make some idiotic turret fighters by the beginning of the war, but it didn't take them long to realize that was a dreadful mistake.

Same for a whole host of RAF bomber types which wound down pretty quickly.

Similarly the P-51 as I mentioned. It was only a few months after realizing the Merlin 61 (and additional fuel) made the P-51 a world class fighter that they had started full scale production of the new type. Another is the Corsair, it was on the verge of being scrapped when the Marines proved it's value and the Fleet Air Arm proved it could be landed on Carriers, and that turned the program around. Instead of making that many more Wildcats, they shifted a lot of resources over to the Corsair, including building it in multiple new factories.

I think they could have done something similar with the bombers. Unfortunately guys like Le May and Harris had a lot of influence and made their case in spite of the facts. It cost us a lot, and the Continental Europeans even more. Russians too probably.

S

The USA ended up more wedded to the idea of turrets than the UK. It may have been only a few months after the Mustang was tried out with a Merlin but it took until mid 1943 for them to arrive in UK and early 1944 before they were there in numbers. The FAA "proving" that the Corsair could be landed on a carrier is a myth. No doubt at all things could have been done differently and in some cases better just not really with mosquitos.

 

[Shortround6]

I would note that Brewster was brought in as a 2nd source for Corsairs on Nov 1st 1941. At some point in Dec 1941 Goodyear is brought in as the 3rd source. This is well over year before the Marines proved anything. The first combat mission of the Marine Corsairs was on Feb 13 1943 and Goodyear manages to deliver it's first two Corsairs in April beating Brewster by about 2 months, Goodyear goes on to seriously outproduce Brewster.
Navy Squadron VF-12 had ten Corsairs on Jan 14th 1943. eight days later they had 22. They train with the Corsairs until April at which point they hand them off to marines at Espirito Santo and re-equip with Hellcats. VF-12 was on the CVE-13 USS Core a 500ft 17kt carrier and lost 14 pilots killed in training. They transferred to the USS Sangamon for the trip to the South Pacific.

we really aren't going to get anywhere unless some of this time travel stops.

 

[Schweik]

I have worked on refineries too all over UK and Saudi Arabia plus one in Abu Dhabi. Unless you destroy the vessels and heavy equipment the rest can be lashed up quickly.

That is an astounding opinion that I won't comment on further because I don't know you and don't want to be rude. Or ruder. I'm sorry but that is an incredible thing for anyone to say. Incredible. We live in such times though.

The Corsair was well on it's way to being cancelled or at least phased out (I believe it had already been banned from carrier use) when the Marines success with the aircraft revived it's fortunes.

You two in particular have thoroughly convinced me of one thing - that you cannot be convinced of anything you did not already believe. This is a common trait online.

So I think it would be pointless for me to continue this particular discussion, having already made my points. I think it's demonstrably provable that Mosquitos could certainly have conducted the Ploesti raid by September of 1943 at the very latest, and I think most people would agree they would have taken fewer casualties and caused more damage. They also could have certainly done repeated raids.

The broader question of whether B-24's and Lancasters could have been cancelled in favor of building more mosquitos and accelerating development and production of high performance fighters is too speculative to have a reasonable discussion about among strangers.

As for the alleged Submarine-pen like invulnerability of oil refineries to 1,000 lb bombs, or the Strategic value of "De-housing" hundreds of thousands of civilians, gentlemen, you are entitled to your opinions, but you have not even come within 100 miles of convincing me that is for sure.

That is my last word in this thread. Good night.

 

[wuzak]

Regarding sub pen attacks:

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArchive/Magazine Documents/2015/February 2015/0215targets.pdf

 

[wuzak]

The Corsair was well on it's way to being cancelled or at least phased out (I believe it had already been banned from carrier use) when the Marines success with the aircraft revived it's fortunes.

It wasn't banned for carrier use - it hadn't been cleared for carrier use (until early 1943?)

Don't know where you get the idea that F4U was close to being cancelled.

So I think it would be pointless for me to continue this particular discussion, having already made my points. I think it's demonstrably provable that Mosquitos could certainly have conducted the Ploesti raid by September of 1943 at the very latest, and I think most people would agree they would have taken fewer casualties and caused more damage. They also could have certainly done repeated raids.

I personally think that Mosquitoes could have conducted a low level day time attack on the ball bearing factories at Schweinfurt in August or October 1943, if there had been sufficient available at the time.

But I doubt that Ploesti was possible in August 1943.

As for the alleged Submarine-pen like invulnerability of oil refineries to 1,000 lb bombs, or the Strategic value of "De-housing" hundreds of thousands of civilians, gentlemen, you are entitled to your opinions, but you have not even come within 100 miles of convincing me that is for sure.

The point is that the USAAF rarely, if ever, used 1000lb bombs against oil facilities. Generally they used smaller bombs of 250lb, 300lb and 500lb. Even 100lb. Basically because the more they used the better chance of hitting something.

The RAF, on the other hand, used 1000lb and 4000lb bombs, and probably some 500lb bombs as well.

 

[pbehn]

That is an astounding opinion that I won't comment on further because I don't know you and don't want to be rude. Or ruder. I'm sorry but that is an incredible thing for anyone to say. Incredible. We live in such times though.

The Corsair was well on it's way to being cancelled or at least phased out (I believe it had already been banned from carrier use) when the Marines success with the aircraft revived it's fortunes.

You two in particular have thoroughly convinced me of one thing - that you cannot be convinced of anything you did not already believe. This is a common trait online.

So I think it would be pointless for me to continue this particular discussion, having already made my points. I think it's demonstrably provable that Mosquitos could certainly have conducted the Ploesti raid by September of 1943 at the very latest, and I think most people would agree they would have taken fewer casualties and caused more damage. They also could have certainly done repeated raids.

The broader question of whether B-24's and Lancasters could have been cancelled in favor of building more mosquitos and accelerating development and production of high performance fighters is too speculative to have a reasonable discussion about among strangers.

As for the alleged Submarine-pen like invulnerability of oil refineries to 1,000 lb bombs, or the Strategic value of "De-housing" hundreds of thousands of civilians, gentlemen, you are entitled to your opinions, but you have not even come within 100 miles of convincing me that is for sure.

That is my last word in this thread. Good night.

I worked in the middle east for two years, although my "day job" was running a mechanical test house, I was at the time qualified in ultrasonics and radiography, while there I was trained in thermography so I was asked to do "odd jobs" of a few days or so all over KSA and one outage in Abu Dhabi. I also live next to the UKs biggest (at the time) refineries in WW2. Times have changed, where I live for much of the war protected itself with pollution, there was such a cloud of smoke from the plant and the towns finding a precise target was difficult, indeed sometimes bombers returning to the local airfields occasionally couldn't find them.

Destroying oil capacity proved to be just like destroying civilian morale. What happened is that capacity was reduced by the raid, maybe to zero but quickly started to rise again as repairs were effected. In war time using slave labour and not respecting any safety codes things can be brought back on line, and were, very quickly, even if at reduced capacity. I didn't say they were invulnerable, I said they were much harder to hit and permanently destroy than anyone thought at the start.

Ploesti had ten refineries, it was bombed from as soon as the allies could reach it until just before it was over run by the red army.
Ploesti Air Raids on Romania Oil Fields World War II

 

[Milosh]

United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (European War)

posted in Strategic Bombing Campaign Impact on German Oil Production

 

[Shortround6]

Several Merlin P-38s were proposed - ones with Merlin XX (V-1650-1), Merlin 60 series (V-1650-3) and Merlin 100 series.

None even went to the prototype stage - perhaps because of lobbying efforts by GM, who owned Allison.

It may have been lobbing, it may have been that paper engineering studies/estimates showed no real advantage. In some cases they showed a few disadvantages like a reduction in range, one was an 8% reduction in range if I remember right. Wither this was of any real consequence I don't know.
The P-38 was in a weird position as the premier American fighter from before Pearl Harbor until the Spring of 1943. It was large and expensive but until you get P-47s showing in quantity It was the only game in town and slowdowns in production were not going to viewed well.
Yes Lockheed was working on a few other prototypes and might have been able to squeeze a Merlin P-38 into the mix but where were the Merlins going to come from for production batches?

Sticking V-1650-1s in P-38s would fewer P-40Fs.
In the Spring/summer of 1943 NA had several hundred P-51B airframes waiting for V-1650-3 Merlins.

It turns out the XP-49 (first ordered in the fall of 1939) turns out to be a total dud due the engines.

The Allison used higher compression ratio than the Merlin and got better fuel economy, at least at cruising speeds.
At altitude the turbo, if used properly, could also help with cruising more than the exhaust thrust of a non turbo engine.
Now these may have been single digit differences or even combined still been in the single digits but not everything is a conspiracy.