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Today the go-to bomb for most missions is a 1,000 or 2,000 lbs bomb. The accuracy (today laser guided or GPS guided) makes the difference. An 8,000 lb bomb has very limited real world need, outside of propaganda. Much like huge 4 engine bombers full of 500 lb bombs which explode miles away from their target.
A 1,000 lb bomb is plenty to destroy oil refineries and most factories or airfields. Let alone tanks or AT guns which is the main purpose of a Dive Bomber in land combat ala Stuka.
Most 4 engined heavy bomber raids were dropping 250 or 500 lb bombs anyway most of the time. And missing.
A two stage sueprcharged merlin could have allowed them to dump the turbo on the P-38 and allowed the P-38 to play at high altitude, where they faced limited competition that didn't fly that well up high. Then they could focus on the other (I agree, myriad) problems. But the P-38 was supposed to be a high altitude fighter from the get-go so it's major problems playing up above the clouds was a huge setback for it's value as a fighter.
coffee plants and sugar cane don't grow 3 plants per 100 acres. how many square miles of tropical forest do you have to deal with to get the needed trees?
If some bright spark around 1910 had decided that Balsa wood would be the coming thing in 30 years and planted hundreds of acres with neat rows of Balsa trees so they could be harvested and shipped in large quantities with little trouble then yeah, America could have built thousands of Mosquitos.
If you want to replace the B-17 and the B-24 the decision has to be made in 1941. it doesn't matter if the accomplished anything or not in 1941 or even much in 1942.
As for fighters with turbos. They almost have to be designed in from the start adding them later is NOT like adding them to car today.
adding them later gets you things like this
View attachment 488666
and this is for a plane that already had a two stage supercharger and intercoolers.
Several Merlin P-38s were proposed - ones with Merlin XX (V-1650-1), Merlin 60 series (V-1650-3) and Merlin 100 series.
None even went to the prototype stage - perhaps because of lobbying efforts by GM, who owned Allison.
Why would you give the Allison to RR to "develop???
You do know don't you the 2 stage superchrger was invented in the USA with patents being issued in 1938???? RR did not invent the 2 stage supercharger!! The grumman F4F Wildcat with a PW R1830 was THE first plane to fly with a 2 stage supercharger !!!! Also PW added that 2 stage 2 speed supercharger to the R2800 as used on the F4U -4 Corsair and the F6F Hellcat. The P47 added a turbocharger to the R2800 for high altitude performance !!! The better question would have been why was not this info available to Allison ???? Jesse Vincent of Packard had access to the 2 stage superchargers early on, he had an air version A2500 he was working on of the PT Boat engine M2500 that used a 2 stage supercharger. That engine got shelved when Packard agreed to build the Merlin FOR THE BRITS !!!! USA had the technology but the USAAF was hung up on turbos that could not be fitted to most fighters, BUT the Navy saw the need !!!
The USAAF essentially carpet bombed oil facilities in Germany with small bombs (250-500lb GP) in 1944. They caused damage, but that could be repaired. So the bombers had to repeat the raid over and over. It became a race between the repairers and the bombers.
The RAF used larger bombs - 1000lb and up. They did more damage to oil facilities with these bombs, particularly the 4000lb HC bomb, and had to return to the facilities on fewer occasions.
LOL S/R the Mosquito only started trials in 1941, lets see all that effort stopped because someone has seen a wooden plane in UK
I am a big fan of the mosquito myself, but you need everyone in all military organisations to have a complete change of mind sometime in the thirties, the British were more obsessed with putting turrets in everything than taking all defensive armament out. The mass de housing as a strategy worked, it was a massive drag on German industry and output.Obviously not. But once the Mosquito started to prove itself - say late summer of 1942? If you had a really bright person in charge, maybe they could have seen the light. Naturally it's unlikely - it's a "what if" but if you could have started shifting priorities then instead of doubling down on bad decisions and rationalizing "mass de-housing" as a strategy.
It's a game of "what if" we are engaging in here not "what happened"
S
I've worked in refineries. They are delicate and catch fire really easily. They blow up really easily, sometimes on their own. We had one near where I live which was damaged by a Cat Cracker explosion about 20 years ago, and it took months to get it working again, this without the pressure of having a war on and dealing with further raids.
I am a big fan of the mosquito myself, but you need everyone in all military organisations to have a complete change of mind sometime in the thirties, the British were more obsessed with putting turrets in everything than taking all defensive armament out. The mass de housing as a strategy worked, it was a massive drag on German industry and output.
I have worked on refineries too all over UK and Saudi Arabia plus one in Abu Dhabi. Unless you destroy the vessels and heavy equipment the rest can be lashed up quickly.I've worked in refineries. They are delicate and catch fire really easily. They blow up really easily, sometimes on their own. We had one near where I live which was damaged by a Cat Cracker explosion about 20 years ago, and it took months to get it working again, this without the pressure of having a war on and dealing with further raids.
I don't know that much about the RAF raids on oil facilities but I do know about the Ploesti raid and others done with B-24's, and they suffered massive casualties. That and their relatively poor bombing accuracy (no fault of the brave crews) meant that they couldn't keep going back and really finish the job. I think with Mosquitoes you could.
S
The USA ended up more wedded to the idea of turrets than the UK. It may have been only a few months after the Mustang was tried out with a Merlin but it took until mid 1943 for them to arrive in UK and early 1944 before they were there in numbers. The FAA "proving" that the Corsair could be landed on a carrier is a myth. No doubt at all things could have been done differently and in some cases better just not really with mosquitos.No, I don't think you needed to have a complete change of mind in the 30's. Military theories in the 30's were mostly wrong. The obsession on turrets by the RAF, which was going to turret-fighters, is a good example. They did make some idiotic turret fighters by the beginning of the war, but it didn't take them long to realize that was a dreadful mistake.
Same for a whole host of RAF bomber types which wound down pretty quickly.
Similarly the P-51 as I mentioned. It was only a few months after realizing the Merlin 61 (and additional fuel) made the P-51 a world class fighter that they had started full scale production of the new type. Another is the Corsair, it was on the verge of being scrapped when the Marines proved it's value and the Fleet Air Arm proved it could be landed on Carriers, and that turned the program around. Instead of making that many more Wildcats, they shifted a lot of resources over to the Corsair, including building it in multiple new factories.
I think they could have done something similar with the bombers. Unfortunately guys like Le May and Harris had a lot of influence and made their case in spite of the facts. It cost us a lot, and the Continental Europeans even more. Russians too probably.
S
I have worked on refineries too all over UK and Saudi Arabia plus one in Abu Dhabi. Unless you destroy the vessels and heavy equipment the rest can be lashed up quickly.
The Corsair was well on it's way to being cancelled or at least phased out (I believe it had already been banned from carrier use) when the Marines success with the aircraft revived it's fortunes.
So I think it would be pointless for me to continue this particular discussion, having already made my points. I think it's demonstrably provable that Mosquitos could certainly have conducted the Ploesti raid by September of 1943 at the very latest, and I think most people would agree they would have taken fewer casualties and caused more damage. They also could have certainly done repeated raids.
As for the alleged Submarine-pen like invulnerability of oil refineries to 1,000 lb bombs, or the Strategic value of "De-housing" hundreds of thousands of civilians, gentlemen, you are entitled to your opinions, but you have not even come within 100 miles of convincing me that is for sure.
I worked in the middle east for two years, although my "day job" was running a mechanical test house, I was at the time qualified in ultrasonics and radiography, while there I was trained in thermography so I was asked to do "odd jobs" of a few days or so all over KSA and one outage in Abu Dhabi. I also live next to the UKs biggest (at the time) refineries in WW2. Times have changed, where I live for much of the war protected itself with pollution, there was such a cloud of smoke from the plant and the towns finding a precise target was difficult, indeed sometimes bombers returning to the local airfields occasionally couldn't find them.That is an astounding opinion that I won't comment on further because I don't know you and don't want to be rude. Or ruder. I'm sorry but that is an incredible thing for anyone to say. Incredible. We live in such times though.
The Corsair was well on it's way to being cancelled or at least phased out (I believe it had already been banned from carrier use) when the Marines success with the aircraft revived it's fortunes.
You two in particular have thoroughly convinced me of one thing - that you cannot be convinced of anything you did not already believe. This is a common trait online.
So I think it would be pointless for me to continue this particular discussion, having already made my points. I think it's demonstrably provable that Mosquitos could certainly have conducted the Ploesti raid by September of 1943 at the very latest, and I think most people would agree they would have taken fewer casualties and caused more damage. They also could have certainly done repeated raids.
The broader question of whether B-24's and Lancasters could have been cancelled in favor of building more mosquitos and accelerating development and production of high performance fighters is too speculative to have a reasonable discussion about among strangers.
As for the alleged Submarine-pen like invulnerability of oil refineries to 1,000 lb bombs, or the Strategic value of "De-housing" hundreds of thousands of civilians, gentlemen, you are entitled to your opinions, but you have not even come within 100 miles of convincing me that is for sure.
That is my last word in this thread. Good night.
Several Merlin P-38s were proposed - ones with Merlin XX (V-1650-1), Merlin 60 series (V-1650-3) and Merlin 100 series.
None even went to the prototype stage - perhaps because of lobbying efforts by GM, who owned Allison.