Time Machine Consultant : Maximizing the Bf-109 in January 1943

[davebender]

This poses a production dilema.

Messerschmitt Bf 109 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Three factory complexes were mass producing the Me-109 during 1943.
2,164 Messerschmitt, Regensburg
2,015 Erla, Liepzig.
2,200 W.N.F. Wiener Neustadt

I believe Me-262 development was at Regensburg. This was moved to a new facility at Obergrammerau after an air raid on 17 August 1943. They could afford to do this as the Me-262 was still waiting for the Jumo 004B engine to be certified production ready.

In this scenerio Germany cannot afford to wait for a new factory complex to be built as the Me-262 enters immediate production powered by Jumo 004A engines. I assume Regensburg will produce Me-262s from 1943 onward rather then Me-109s. This cuts overall Me-109 production by a third.

Do we still introduce the Me-155 during 1943 at the two remaining factory compexes? Or do we stick with Me-109Gs on the assumption the remaining factories will convert to jet production within a year or two?

 

[Civettone]

You already know my answer. The Me 155 would not have formed much of an advantage so it is not advisable to convert production and lose a couple of months worth of fighter aircraft over it.

But - and I know this isn't what was specified in the initial post - wouldn't it make much more sense to convert Fw 190 production for the Me 262 ??
The Bf 109 was so damn easy to produce so it would be a shame to give this up. The Fw 190A and D had no use whatsoever once the Me 262 was in production...

Kris

 

[Bronc]

Dave asked, "Do we still introduce the Me-155 during 1943 at the two remaining
factory complexes? Or do we stick with Me-109Gs on the assumption the remaining factories
will convert to jet production within a year or two?"

In my opinion, we should convert all Me-109 production over to the Me-155 ASAP.
How we phase the conversion in, whether it be one line at a time, or one factory
at a time, is an important detail, but the critical thing is that we get it done.

Remember, we are trying to reestablish--and then maintain--air superiority literally everywhere.
The Eastern Front is in crisis, The Allies are operating all across the Med, the 8th Air Force
is growing in Britain, plus, the RAF fighter sweeps across France are a constant nuisance.

The Me-155 would have been 50 mph faster, climbed better, had much better range, was much
better armed and it COMPLETELY eliminated the Me-109's appalling landing and take-off characteristics.
(The Me-155 was designed to land on an aircraft carrier after all...)

Dave (intentionally) outlined out the thinking that doomed the Luftwaffe: "...on the assumption the remaining
factories will convert to jet production within a year or two?"

We need the Me-155 and we need it right now.

Bronc

 

[davebender]

make much more sense to convert Fw 190 production for the Me 262 ??

I thought about that and it sounds logical. However I doubt it would happen. Both Messerschmitt and Focke-Wulf would oppose such a proposal. Bronc would need to shoot quite a few people to clear away the opposition.

Now if we can back up to 1940....
The He-100 wins the RLM contract rather then the Fw-190. This gives the Luftwaffe two inexpensive fighter models, both of which are powered by the reliable and inexpensive DB601 / DB605 engine. The larger BMW801, DB603, Jumo 213 and Jumo 222 engines under development will be reserved for bombers and night fighters. The Me-109 will eventually evolve into the Me-155. The He-100 will also evolve over time.

 

[Bronc]

Civettone wrote: "The Bf 109 was so damn easy to produce so it would be a shame to give this up.
The Fw 190A and D had no use whatsoever once the Me 262 was in production..."

We're friends Civettone, but this is crazy talk.

By January, 1943 sending the average German fighter pilot on a mission in a Bf-109, any kind of mission, on any front, was only marginally better than
sending him on a suicide mission. If the takeoff didn't kill him the mission did, and if the mission didn't kill him the landing did.

By rephrasing your sentence, we are able to see its real essence: "It would be a shame to end the needless slaughter of our fighter pilots, just when we are trying to rebuild pilot numbers and pilot experience in our fighter units, because the Bf-109 is so damn easy to produce..."

The Me-262 was not a dogfighter. It was a hit and run slashing attacker best suited for attacking bombers and when it tried to mix it up in low-energy, turning dogfights with Spitfires and P-47's and P-51's IT DIED.

The Fw-190 D series (later the Ta-152 series) would have been necessary to complement the Me-262 in furballs at lower altitudes, and as we know, to protect it as it landed. Another more nimble jet fighter like the Ta-183 would have been necessary to replace the Fw-190 D / Ta-152 series AND THEN the Luftwaffe should have continued to build them until the year 2055, because they were so damn cool.

Bronc

 

[davebender]

So don't turn fight. Use your 100 mph speed advantage and tremendous firepower to make a high speed pass at the enemy. You've got 4 nose mounted 30mm cannon so any hit at all on an enemy aircraft will cause serious damage.

 

[Civettone]

By January, 1943 sending the average German fighter pilot on a mission in a Bf-109, any kind of mission, on any front, was only marginally better than
sending him on a suicide mission. If the takeoff didn't kill him the mission did, and if the mission didn't kill him the landing did.

You did not just say that ...

The Me-262 was not a dogfighter. It was a hit and run slashing attacker best suited for attacking bombers and when it tried to mix it up in low-energy, turning dogfights with Spitfires and P-47's and P-51's IT DIED.

You did not just say that ...

The Fw-190 D series (later the Ta-152 series) would have been necessary to complement the Me-262 in furballs at lower altitudes, and as we know, to protect it as it landed. Another more nimble jet fighter like the Ta-183 would have been necessary to replace the Fw-190 D / Ta-152 series AND THEN the Luftwaffe should have continued to build them until the year 2055, because they were so damn cool.

You did not just say that ...

This is too much for me. Saying that the Bf 109G was obsolete in January 1943 ?
Saying that the Me 262 was no good against enemy fighters, only bombers ?
Saying the Ta 152 was needed to protect the Me 262 at low altitude ?
Saying the Ta 183 should have been built because it was so ... cool ?

I need a drink Anyone else ?

Kris

 

[Bronc]

Dave wrote: "So don't turn fight. Use your 100 mph speed advantage and tremendous firepower to make a high speed pass at the enemy. You've got 4 nose mounted 30mm cannon so any hit at all on an enemy aircraft will cause serious damage."

And all the Spitfire, P-47 and P-51 pilots say in unison: "We know exactly what you're going to try to do... But we ain't gonna let you play that game. We're gonna use our much superior maneuverability to turn and duck out of a Me-262 attack, then we're gonna chase you around and play "dodge the Me-262" until you run out of gas. (Because we're gonna be up here for about 4 hours and you're gonna run out of gas in 45 minutes.) And the second, the instant, you get low on gas, we're gonna jump on you like a chicken on a june bug..."

"Sure, you Me-262 pilots might get one or two of us coming out of the sun, but after that baby, we're gonna be here all day, dodging your superior speed, waiting for you to run out of gas. Because, it's not like you have any Fw-190 D's or Ta-152's or anything to occupy our time.."

Bronc

 

[Bronc]

1) By January, 1943 sending the average German fighter pilot on a mission in a Bf-109, any kind of mission, on any front, was only marginally better than sending him on a suicide mission. If the takeoff didn't kill him the mission did, and if the mission didn't kill him the landing did.

The Bf-109 circa January, 1943 was a deathtrap. Everyone in the Jagdwaffe knew it then, and everyone should realize it now.

2) The Me-262 was not a dogfighter. It was a hit and run slashing attacker best suited for attacking bombers and when it tried to mix it up in low-energy, turning dogfights with Spitfires and P-47's and P-51's IT DIED.

The Me-262 couldn't turn, roll, accelerate, or slow down anyway near a Spitfire, P-47 or P-51 and if you can't turn, roll, accelerate or slow down against an opponent, you only have a hit and run slashing attack to rely on. (The limitations on the Me-262's dogfighting ability are so well know, they're not even
debatable.)

3) But my imprecise writing has led to some confusion. The Luftwaffe should have built the Fw-190 D-13 and Ta-152 C until 2055, because they were so cool, not the Ta-183, which was not so much.

Bronc!!

 

[Civettone]

This is madness!! You are saying the more manoeuvrable one had the advantage? Try telling that to old those dead Zero pilots who got assacred in boom n zoom attacks by American fighters pilots.
And why did the world switch to less manoeuvrable jet fighters as soon as the war ended ???
Dodging the Me 262 ... great plan !

And stop saing you will use the Ta 152 to protect the Me 262 bases. They never did though you will read a lot about it ... on the internet. The allies could afford to fly around the air fields because their bases were so close to Germany. They could have done the same with any aircraft as they are ALL vulnerable during landing and take off! But they knew they couldnt catch the Me 262 in flight.

In all the years I have been here this is the most idiotic ever. I am outta this one...
Kris

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I am with Civ on this. How was the 109 obsolete?

 

[Vincenzo]

In january '43 the gustav was one of the best fighter available

There are no reason because the 262 starting a manouvring fightning a low velocity (but inexperencied pilot)

 

[Bronc]

Civettone: When your enemy has a distinct advantage over you in one (or more) aspects of the flight
envelope, in fighter combat, you do not play to that strength. (Not if you want to live anyway.)

Zero vs. P-40 and the Wildcat: The American response to the Zero was NEVER dogfight a Zero. Never. Don't put yourself at a deadly disadvantage by playing to the enemy's distinct advantage. Dogfighting a Zero leads to certain death. Use Hit and Run - Zoom and Boom - Slash and Burn tactics.

In reply, the Japanese refused to change their tactics to address the only advantage the P-40 and Wildcat had. (Not counting the incredibly tough construction of the Wildcat.) That the Japanese were unwilling (unwilling, not unable) to adapt to Hit and Run - Zoom and Boom - Slash and Burn tactics is well-known and is written and commented on frequently.

The Spitfire's, P-47's and P-51's answer to the 100 mph advantage the Me-262 had was to play loose, to dodge and maneuver--to play 100% defense--until them speedy bastards run out of gas or try to turn and maneuver, and when that happens, then we jump all over them.

Bronc

 

[Bronc]

And we know for certain what's going to happen in late-1943, 1944 and 1945.

And based upon this knowledge, if we fail to convert the Luftwaffe's Bf-109's over to the Me-155
in January, 1943 (while we still have a little time) we are going to get sacked, and then fired. For Heaven's sake's--as consultants--if we don't
know, or can't see, how badly the Bf-109 was performing much past January 1943, THEN WE SHOULD SHOOT OURSELVES.

Bronc

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

For Heaven's sake's--as consultants--if we don't
know, or can't see, how badly the Bf-109 was performing much past January 1943, THEN WE SHOULD SHOOT OURSELVES.

Bronc

The Bf 109 was not obsolete, nor was it performing bad. You put any aircraft into its place and the outcome is not going to change.

 

[Shortround6]

I am confused, just what super-duper, BV 155 are we talking about here?

THe early proposed carrier plane?

Performance shouldn't be much different than a standard 109G using the same engine. If as good.

THe attack bomber proposal, neet but not much use as an interceptor.

THE Bv 155B versions with turbo-chargers?

THE Germans jumped the gun on this one. Perhaps fooled by their own success with the JU 86 Ps and Rs the Germans seemed to be planning on combat at 40,000-50,000ft. The resulting 155Bs would have been dead ducks at 25-35,000ft. According to "Green" which may be outdated, the top speed of 429mph was at 52,490ft. At a mere 39,370 this fell to 404mph and at a more common combat altitude of 32,810 ft speed was only 373mph and it just got slower the lower it went. The huge wing (67 ft span) and almost 420 sq ft wasn't going to help rolling performance with those radiators half way out the wings. Climb might have been just a bit disapointing to at the altites most of the oposition was actually flying at.

The Bv 155C?
Not really available anywhere near 1943, more like the Spring of 1945.

 

[davebender]

The Bf 109 was not obsolete, nor was it performing bad.

I agree. However I believe the Me-155 wing with it's wide track landing gear and room for MG151/20 cannon in the wing root is a worthwhile improvement provided it can be done without disrupting production too much. If nothing else the additional firepower makes it more effective vs heavy bombers.

 

[Vincenzo]

In reply, the Japanese refused to change their tactics to address the only advantage the P-40 and Wildcat had. (Not counting the incredibly tough construction of the Wildcat.) That the Japanese were unwilling (unwilling, not unable) to adapt to Hit and Run - Zoom and Boom - Slash and Burn tactics is well-known and is written and commented on frequently.

AFAIK (and my know came from this forum) japanese doctrine used energy tatics

 

[Civettone]

AFAIK (and my know came from this forum) japanese doctrine used energy tatics

Really? I always thought they used the old dogfight tactics from the days of the biplanes. Hence the importance of turn rate. I associate energy fights with vertical fights, with high speed cuts and dives ... no ??


Shortround, I think bronc is talking about a Me 155 with a new DB 628 (or perhaps DB 603?) engine as he claimed the Me 155 would be a whopping 50 mph faster. If the Me 155 of davebender was to get the enlarged wing and heavier weight of the guns it would be slower than the standard Bf 109. Right dave?


And Bronc, I am not angry with you. But you write outdated stuff which I read years ago and which I have left long behind me. I find it frustrating to fight the old cliches. In a single post you managed to mention three cliches which are terribly irritating for people like me who take learning about WW2 aircraft as a serious matter. It's nothing personal, I just find it a waste of my time trying to discuss this with you. But with all due respect, I mean, 10 years ago I used to write exactly the kind of stuff you are writing now.

Kris

 

[Vincenzo]

Really? I always thought they used the old dogfight tactics from the days of the biplanes. Hence the importance of turn rate. I associate energy fights with vertical fights, with high speed cuts and dives ... no ??

My know came from a JoeB topic unlucky i don't remember what thread,or i have not understand the JoeB topic