Transpolar Interaxis Communication Flight Possible?

[Romantic Technofreak]

Hi all,

I would like to discuss a phantasy plan of flying over the North Pole to get an aerial connection between Japan and Germany. For the distance between Banak in Northern Norway, where the Germans operated their northernmost airbase, and Attu Island I calculate a distance of ("only") 6,119 km. Could have been done using a Junkers Ju 290, maybe carrying extra fuel. The Japanese had to be able to build a runway on the island to host the Ju. If not, big flying boats could have used instead.

The Japanese were anxious not to hurt Soviet airspace, so they were not very glad when an Italian plane visited them in 1942. To avoid this, I think the polar route might have been considered. OK, the route itself i dangerous, but what is not in a war? There could have been American aerial opposition along the Bering strait, but I think, not much. Also, intrusion from the pole surely was not anticipated.

Your thoughts, Gentlemen?

Regards, RT

 

[tyrodtom]

The Japanese only held possession of Attu for 10 months, during the later stage of that they were only supplied by submarine.

Once the US took back the island even they only expanded the runway enough for 2 engine aircraft use. They used nearby Shemya island for their B-24s.

So it would have been hard for the Japanese to construct a runway suitable for a Ju-290. And using a seaplane would have restricted use to how many ice free months? If the surrounding waters were ever ice free.

With atrocious flying weather year round at both ends, and in between, looks like a pretty risky operation.
And then once a aircraft arrived in Attu, then what?

 

[GrauGeist]

The route between Europe and Japanese held Asia was a better prospect.
While the Italian's SM.75GA had to make a stop in the Soviet Union and China, it was possible to fly from Bulgaria or Romania to Singapore.
The Japanese were working on a type that would make the transit, the KI-77 but it was plagued with problems and one that was destined for the German held airbase in the Crimea disappeared without a trace.

The Tachikawa's range was 11,185 miles, which was well beyond the Ju290's range of 3,840 miles.
However, the Me264 had a range of 9,500 miles as well as several other types and could have made the transit.

 

[Romantic Technofreak]

Thank you for your answers!

These are my ones:
1. An airfield for B-24s shows it was generally possible to construct such thing in the area.
2. The waters around the Aleutians are all-year free of drifting or coastal ice.
3. Arriving there, there are two options after refuelling: return home or proceed to Japan.
4. The SM 75s normal range was only 1,720 km. But the route to Northern China, which it flew, was 5,776 km (my calculation).
5. The Ju 290's range could have been adjusted for flights of longer distance as well.
6. As much as I know, the Ki-77 did not prove generally troublesome.
7. Its loss is one of the mysteries of disappeard aircraft, like MH370, Amelia Earhart's and many othes as well.
8. The Ki-77 was scheduled from Singapur to Sarabus, a route which directly flown would violate Soviet-held airspace. The distance is 8,347 km.
9. The distance from Singapur to the what I mean was southeasternmost German held airfield, Rhodes-Gadurra, is 8,658 km.

I mean, the exchange of documents and staff by long-distance flights could have been a slightest begin of coordinated warfare for Germany and Japan, if they had any intention to do so.

Regards, RT

 

[tyrodtom]

The fact that the US built the B-24 airfield on Shemya instead of Attu shows that there was something about the terrain on Attu that even the Seabees didn't want to tackle.

 

[Shortround6]

What is the purpose of these flights?

Many planes could make long range flights if suitably modified. You mention Amelia Earhart, Her Lockheed ten had a normal range of 800 miles. they ripped out the passenger seats and installed large fuel tanks in the passenger space, overloaded the plane by several thousand pounds. (it was about a 10,500lb plane to start with) and got a range of about 4,000 miles out of it but the "payload" was the crew of two and some extra radio gear.

From Wiki so...
"The SM.75 GA.......was a modification of the SM.75 powered by three 641 kW (860 hp) Alfa Romeo 128 engines and fitted as well as a powerful radio and auxiliary fuel tanks to boost the aircraft's range to 7,000 kilometers (4,350 statute miles) with a 1,100-kilogram (2,430-pound) load. With a four- or five-man crew and a 200-kilogram (441-pound) load, the SM.75 GA could achieve a range of 8,005 kilometers (4,971 statute miles) at 298 kilometers per hour (185 miles per hour) flying at altitudes between 3,500 and 5,000 meters (11,483 and 16,404 feet).[4] "

Now 200 kg is about 2 fat passengers or 3 skinny ones. Or several crates of documents.

What are you trying to accomplish with these flights?

 

[Elmas]

What is the purpose of these flights?

omissis
What are you trying to accomplish with these flights?

For example, transport secret codes ( main mission of SM75-GA)

 

[GrauGeist]

Just for the sake of conversation, the BV222 was considered for flights to Japan, using the seabase in Varna, Bulgaria.
The Bv238, had it reached operational status, would have been another contender for the job.

 

[Dimlee]

What about H8K. Range of 7100 km (at least). Probably could be increased if stripped of guns and ammunition and something else? Airstrip not required at Attu.
Or consider another route from Banak - to Paramushir (North Kurils). 6,050 km to 6,080 km if flying over the USSR - over polar regions and Yakutia and the Sea of Okhotsk with almost zero chance of being spotted.
Yet my favourite one would be from Med to Singapore with refuelling somewhere in Arabian Sea. Subject updated weather reports/forecasts can be provided.

 

[GrauGeist]

The flight distance from Bulgaria's coast to Thailand's coast is under 5,000 miles.
Most of that covers the interior of Allied held countries, but they weren't heavily defended. The only issue I could see, would be passing over India's eastern coast, which would have had substantial RAF/IAF units.
Taking off from Varna, head east over the Black Sea and adjust the heading at Georgia and continue on that corse, timing the passage over India's interior at night to minimize detection as you passed over India's eastern coast and the Bay of Bengal, to finally arrive at Thailand.
Either off-load freight/persons in Thailand or fuel up and continue a north-east route to the Home Islands, which would be over Japanese held territory with little chance of Allied interception.

 

[special ed]

I am reminded during wartime when a zero ( might have been the Alaska zero) was flown from California to Wright Pat, it wasn't spotted until over Oklahoma by civilian spotters. Which is why George Gobel"s joke on the tonight show, to Johnny, in response to George's AAF time stateside as an instructor was "No Japanese plane ever got past Oklahoma".

 

[fliger747]

Having been to Shemya many times, the reason that this smaller island was selected for an airfield is that once the shore cliffs are surmounted it is largely flat and long enough without any approach obstacles or nearby mountains to run into during the common episodes of largely inclement weather.

Having flown the polar routes Alaska to Europe many times, the navigational challenges for the day would have been quite formidable! Head North till you get to the pole and then just head South till you get there?

 

[Elmas]

Japanese Goverment was extremely reluctant to allow flights over U.S.S.R., fearing that this could have been considered a casus belli. So, flights between Europe and Japan were not encouraged, to say the least.

 

[tyrodtom]

I almost got stationed at Shemya in 1966. Was very relieved when my orders got changed to Japan.
The island was nobodies idea of a good place to spend a year.

 

[fliger747]

The "Windsock" in front of the base ops is a big driftwood log on a chain...

 

[pinehilljoe]

A little related, try reading
81 Days Below Zero: The Incredible Survival Story of a World War II Pilot in Alaska's Frozen Wilderness,

Its about a B-24 that crashed on a routine patrol flight in Alaska, and the one survivor's story.

 

[herman1rg]

I know it's off topic, but did any Axis submarine do that Northern route?

 

[tyrodtom]

If you mean the Transpolar route, no. No conventional submarine had the submerged range to stay submerged long enough to get under the i

I know it's off topic, but did any Axis submarine do that Northern route?

No conventional submarine of that era even remotely had enough range submerged to stay under the ice long enough to do the transpolar route, I doubt they do even to this day.
The nuclear powered USS Nautilus did it first in 1958.

 

[pinehilljoe]

Even if the boat had range, I don't think the crew could have navigated submerged WW2 era submarine for that long a voyage without a precision inertial measuring unit or gyroscope.

 

[tyrodtom]

I don't see how inertial guidance would help.
The Transpolar route had never had any surveys under the icepack. No one knew what the depths were or where it was shallow.
Knowing exactly where you are globally wouldn't be much help in a submarine, if you didn't have any idea of the route you needed to take through the depths around you.